Transcription made by: Ananya Mataji and Dikshita Mataji
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: So, how is it that Lord's appearance is perpetual? At any time, He can also appear. As we say, the Kalki-avatāra will come, incarnation of Kalki will come at the end of Kali-yuga, not before that. Not now. So how is it that the Lord can appear anytime? And Lord is supreme in all respects, so He has supreme will. He is not the order carrier of anybody. If He wills, He can appear. Nobody can compel Him. How is it?
Devotee: He is compelled by His pure devotees.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Huh? What do you say?
Devotee: Whatever I say will be wrong.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: (laughing)
Devotee: I'm not saying anything.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes, say, say. Yes. Mm-hmm. So, He is not compelled. You see, a pure devotee will never compel him. A pure devotee always prays. Always offers prayer. Never compels Him, ‘Do it for me’. No, he never says these things. And he has no desire, also, a pure devotee.
na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ
kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye
mama janmani janmanīśvare
bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi
[Śrī Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]
No desire, no desire. Not for material wealth, material name, fame, prestige, material follower, material enjoyment, not for liberation. Only to serve Your lotus feet and please You. That is pure devotees’ only prayer. But the Lord is bound up. The Lord is bound up by the love of pure devotee. He is bound up.
bhakta āmā preme bāndhiyāche hṛdaya-bhitare
yāhāṅ netra paḍe tāhāṅ dekhaye āmāre
[Caitanya-caritāmṛta Madhya-līlā 25.127]
He says that. ‘That bhakta, that devotee has bound Me up in his heart. I am bound up. Wherever he looks, he only sees Me’. Such devotee. Prema-bhāgya. Though He is not compelled, but He is compelled. By Himself, He is compelled. Pure devotion, not compulsion. He Himself is compelled. That is supreme love, how He is bound up in love.
In 10th Canto, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, you will find, what He has said to the gopīs. Gopīs are running, gopīs run to jungle of Vṛndāvana at midnight, hearing the flute of Kṛṣṇa, you see? Leaving aside their husbands, their children and family members, everything. Midnight, they run. So, such love is there. So Kṛṣṇa says, na pāraye’haṁ. na pāraye’haṁ.
na pāraye ’haṁ niravadya-saṁyujāṁ
sva-sādhu-kṛtyaṁ vibudhāyuṣāpi vaḥ
[Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 10.32.22]
‘Now I am unable to repay your debt to Me. I'm now indebted to you.’ I am unable to repay your debt. This debt, this love. ‘I have no wealth to repay this debt. Now I have become indebted.’ Kṛṣṇa becomes indebted. And it has been said in Śrīmad-Bhagavat Gita, Kṛṣṇa says, ‘I am not indebted to anybody.’
ye yathā māṁ prapadyante
tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
[Bhagavad-gītā 4.11]
Isn't it? I pay back, according to one's bhajana. According to one's degree of surrender, one is rewarded, he gets back, He is not indebted. Here he says, ‘I am indebted.’ In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 10th Canto, He says, ‘I am indebted.’ But there He says, ‘I'm not indebted.’ It is contradictory, you see? But apparently contradictory, but there's no contradiction at all. It is Supreme. It's question of pure love.
So Kṛṣṇa became indebted. And He said, ‘I have no wealth. No money. I have no wealth to pay back.’
lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānaṁ
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
[Brahma-saṁhitā 5.29]
Thousands and thousands of lakṣmīs are serving that Govinda, ādi-puruṣa, Kṛṣṇa. He said, ‘I have no wealth.’ How is it? He has no wealth? Then who has wealth? Huh?
Devotee: Rādhārāṇī has wealth.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: The wealth required to pay back this debt is not available with Kṛṣṇa. It is available with Rādhārāṇī. That wealth is only available with Rādhārāṇī and not available with Kṛṣṇa. When you have no wealth and you have debt and you have to pay back, what will you do?
Devotee: Steal
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: You will steal?
Devotee: Beg, borrow or steal.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Beg, borrow or steal. Yes? Beg, borrow or steal. If I beg, Rādhārāṇī will never give me. And nobody else has this wealth. So, from whom can I borrow, else than Rādhārāṇī? So, if She will also not lend me, I must steal it. (laughs)
The only way open is stealing. And He is the Supreme stealer, Kṛṣṇa is Supreme stealer. He is supreme in all respect. He is supreme stealer. Supreme thief. He steals when, during His boyhood pastime, steals mākhan-miśrī. Butter. Butter thief. Isn't it? And He steals the garments of gopīs. Gopī-vasanahara, isn't it? Gopī-vasanahara, steals garment of gopīs and also He steals the heart. Citta-cora. He steals the heart. Hari. Examine whether your heart is stolen. Or is there? Go to doctor and examine yourself. Kṛṣṇa has stolen your heart. Citta-cora.
Supreme thief. The leader of the thieves. Caurāgragaṇya, we say. He is the leader of the thieves. But His stealing is very, very nice. Madhuram. Sweet also. Their stealing is also very sweet. Everything pertaining to Kṛṣṇa is all-sweet. His stealing is also sweet. So, He is very expert in stealing. The supreme thief, stealer. So, He stole. He stole that wealth from Rādhārāṇī. That Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī mentioned that thing.
kutukī rasa-stomaṁ hṛtvā
[Caitanya-caritāmṛta Ādi-līlā 4.52 / Vidagdha-mādhava 1.1]
Hṛtvā means stole. Yes. Kutukī rasa-stomaṁ hṛtvā. That is stated. And Rādhārāṇī has stored up that wealth. Where has she stored up that wealth?
Devotee: Kṛṣṇa.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Huh?
Devotee: That was a question? You asked me a question.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes.
Devotee: In the core of heart of Rādhārāṇī.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Huh?
Devotee: The core.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. In the core of Her heart. That wealth is stored up in core of Her heart. So Kṛṣṇa stole, steals that wealth from the core of the heart of Rādhārāṇī. Enters into Rādhārāṇī's heart and He steals it. And that is a fact. Kṛṣṇa is there in the heart of Rādhārāṇī. Who else is there? Is there anybody else other than Kṛṣṇa in Rādhārāṇī's heart?
Devotee: There’s only Kṛṣṇa.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Only Kṛṣṇa, So He is there. He steals. Who is in the heart of Rādhārāṇī? Kṛṣṇa is in the heart of Rādhārāṇī. So, who is in the heart of Kṛṣṇa? Huh?
Devotee: Rādhārāṇī.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Huh?
Devotee: Rādhārāṇī.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Rādhārāṇī. Yes. Rādhārāṇī is in the heart of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is in the heart of Rādhārāṇī. How can you understand this thing, know this thing? You don't know? So, you speculate only? Are you a speculator? How do you know, Gopīnātha? You don't know? Once I told you. You can't remember? Huh? See the garment He has put on. What type? What color?
Devotee: Blue.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Rādhārāṇī's sari is blue sari and Kṛṣṇa's garment is yellow. Isn't it? Why is it so?
Devotee: Because He's always thinking about Her. He's always thinking of Rādhārāṇī.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. Rādhārāṇī is tapta-kāñcana-gaurāṅgī. Her bodily complexion is molten gold. So Kṛṣṇa is always thinking of Rādhārāṇī. Rādhārāṇī is in the heart. So it is indicated from the garment He has put on. Similarly, Rādhārāṇī is always thinking of nīlamaṇi, blue. Śyāmasundara. Blue colour, the colour of the cloud, blue cloud. That's Śyāmasundara, śyāma-ghana. Kṛṣṇa. So, she has put on blue sari.
That, Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī has mentioned that thing in Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi. It's from the garment you can understand what is in the heart. Yes. That you can understand. Gaura Hari? Yes. So Kṛṣṇa is in the heart of Rādhārāṇī, so He can steal. So, He steals.
Devotee: [unclear]
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. In a safe custody, it is reserved in a safe custody. Till Kṛṣṇa enters into that inner apartment. Steals. That nice description is there given by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī has given all these things. Nice. Mm-hmm. Anyhow. So, He came as Gaurasundara. Then Śyāmasundara becomes Gaurasundara. Śyāmasundara becomes Gaurasundara now, to pay back the debt, only to pay back the debt.
Devotee: How can you explain that by coming as Gaurasundara, He pays back the debt? How can you explain that, Guru Mahārāja? So for His own, own pleasure, internal pleasure, how can you explain that same time He paid, Kṛṣṇa paid the debt?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: His debt? Yes.
Devotee: How?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: You see,
gaurāṅga balite habe pulaka śarīra
hari hari balite nayane ba’be nīra
[Lālasāmayī Prārthanā, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura]
We chant that song, Narottamā dasa song. Why? If you just utter the name of Gaurāṅga, your whole body will be ecstatic. The hairs on the body will be erected. Why?
Devotee: Because Himself Hari. By uttering the name of Hari.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. hari hari balite nayane ba’be nīra. Himself is Hari, but uttering name of Hari, He sheds tears. He sheds tear. This is how He is paying back. Himself is Hari, but uttering the name of Hari, He sheds tear. In Śikṣāṣṭaka, He has said that thing.
nayanaṁ galad-aśru-dhārayā
vadanaṁ gadgada-ruddhayā girā
pulakair nicitaṁ vapuḥ kadā
tava nāma-grahaṇe bhaviṣyati
[Śrī Śikṣāṣṭaka 6]
Huh? kadā tava nāma-grahaṇe bhaviṣyati. You see? This is the symptom of love. ‘When that day will come, by uttering Your name, O Lord, I will shed tears by torrential rains, as torrential rains. And my voice will be choked up. I cannot utter’, you see. This outward symptom of the love.
And Mahāprabhu has exhibited all these symptoms. As Rādhārāṇī was crying, feeling the pangs of separation from Kṛṣṇa and all the gopīs, headed by Rādhārāṇī are crying, feeling pangs of separation from Kṛṣṇa. And Mahāprabhu cried similarly. He cried. Always feeling the pangs of separation from Kṛṣṇa. He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. This is how He is paying back.
Devotee: Yes, Gurumahārāj.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: How He is paying back.
Devotee: Can I ask a question?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes.
Devotee: The gopīs who were with Kṛṣṇa when Kṛṣṇa came 5,000 years ago.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yeah.
Devotee: So now when Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Kṛṣṇa Himself, He assumed the mood of Rādhārāṇī, those gopīs, they could understand that’s the pastime of Kṛṣṇa?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes.
Devotee: They could understand?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Those gopīs are with Rādhārāṇī. As it is said when Kṛṣṇa assume the mood of Rādhārāṇī and complexion, bodily complexion of Rādhārāṇī, came as Gaurāṅga, all gopīs also come. They have come. Rāya Rāmānanda, Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvāmī, Viśākhā - Lalitā Sakhī, Viśākhā Sakhī. Sanātana Gosvāmī - Lavaṅga Mañjarī, like this. All gopīs. They are all human. This male form now. In male form. But they are gopīs, sakhīs, mañjarīs. Rūpa Gosvāmī - Rūpa Mañjarī. The most intimate, Lalitā Sakhī, Viśākhā Sakhī, Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvāmī and Rāya Rāmānanda, most intimate.
And when Mahāprabhu is always feeling the pangs of separation. When He sees Rāya Rāmānanda and Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvāmī, He’s just putting His hand on the neck, like Rādhārāṇī putting her hand on the shoulder of her girl companion. He just puts and cries, O Kṛṣṇa!
kva nanda-kula-candramāḥ kva yama-nīla-śaila-dyutiḥ
kva bhadra-mura-mardanī-rasa-kadamba-puṣpāvalī
kva tāmra-śikhi-piñchakaḥ kva mṛdu-veṇu-vādya-dhvaniḥ
kva nartana-para-sphuran-madhura-rāsa-goṣṭhī-vidhiḥ
[Caitanya-caritāmṛta Antya-līlā 19.35 / Vilāpa-kusumāñjali 7]
Just cries. ‘Where is that Kṛṣṇa? The son of Nanda Mahārāj? Where is that Kṛṣṇa who dances in rāsa dance? Where is that Kṛṣṇa who plays so sweetly with His flute? mandra-muralī-ravaḥ?’
kāhāṅ karoṅ kāhāṅ pāṅ vrajendra-nandana
kāhāṅ mora prāṇa-nātha muralī-vadana
[Caitanya-caritāmṛta Madhya-līlā 2.15]
He just cries, ‘Where shall I go? Where shall I find Him out? And who will help me to find Him out?’. Like this says and cries, Mahāprabhu. This is how He is paying back. And He Himself says,
gaura aṅga nahe mora — rādhāṅga-sparśana
[Caitanya-caritāmṛta Madhya-līlā 8.287]
Devotee: Caitanya Mahāprabhu.. very difficult to defeat.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yeah. Yes. Very difficult because they create such words jugglery, you will be puzzled. They will make you puzzled. Great learned scholars. As for example, when there was first, this conversation between Gopīnātha Ācārya and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Gopīnātha Ācārya is a devotee. Gopīnātha Ācārya knows that Mahāprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
He tried his best to convince Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya but he was never convinced. And then he asked, ‘How do you say? How do you say that He is Supreme Personality of Godhead?’ He said, śāstra-pramāṇa, veda-pramāṇa. What is that mean? His students then, Sārvabhauma's students, they raised question, anumāna pramāṇa. They stress on anumāna pramāṇa . They have one logic. Anumāna – just speculation. And it will be different from person to person. Different and different. Cannot be one. And they have no one logic, they have many logics. Their one logic is where there is, smoke, there is fire.
But this is a defective logic, you see. Now you see if the hall looks smoky, is there fire? It's all smoky, isn't it? Is there fire? And from a great distance, a hill looks as if covered with smoke. So is there fire? Go nearer to this hill then you will see that no fire is there, no smoke is also there. It looks from a great distance as if covered with smoke, but practically there isn't. This is their logic, you see. It's defective logic. I cannot recollect this, a very nice logic. vahnimān dhūmāt. Vahni means fire, dhūma is smoke. This is their logic, they say that when there is smoke, there is fire. So, from a great distance, the hill looks as if covered with smoke, so there is fire. There's only anumāna, there's no fire at all. Mm-hmm. But he says, Gopīnātha Ācārya says,
anumāna pramāṇa nahe īśvara-tattve-jñāna
[Caitanya-caritāmṛta Madhya-līlā 6.82]
This is not pramāṇa, this is not the evidence to prove. Then he said, ‘How do you say that who is He?’ In Bhāgavata it is said, tri-yuga. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavān appears in only three yugas. Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara, not in Kali. How do you say that He is Bhagavān? It is Kali-yuga. So, he says, Bhāgavata says, tri-yuga. Only Bhagavān appears in three yugas. Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara. Not in Kali. This is Kali-yuga. How do you say that is Bhagavān?
Then he said, ‘You are such a great paṇḍita.’ Gopīnātha Ācārya said. Can't you understand what is the real purport of tri-yuga? This is their own way of explanation, just word jugglery. In Kali-yuga, Bhagavān has no līlā-avatāras, but yuga-avatāra is there. Tri-yuga doesn't mean that Bhagavān will never appear in Kali-yuga. No. There's no līlā-avatāra, but the yuga-avatāra is there. So, you see, he said like that and they interpret in this way. They make these word juggleries.
Sometimes they say Nārada means na-rada. Rada means teeth, na means no. No teeth. A teethless person is Nārada. Old man, fallen teeth, as Nārada. This is just word jugglery; they are just different words. That doesn't mean. Nārada means the son of Lord Brahmā, a great devotee. So, we have these two types, lakṣaṇā and vyañjanā. Lakṣaṇā or abhidhā-vṛtti. Mukhya-vṛtti, gauṇa-vṛtti, we say. Or lakṣaṇā, vyañjanā. Remember, two types of interpretation. Lakṣaṇā, vyañjanā or mukhya, gauṇa. But, we interpret Vedas in mukhya-vṛtti, not in gauṇa-vṛtti. If you accept the gauṇa-vṛtti, indirect meaning. We accept direct meaning, not indirect.
In English we say as chief and secondary, Mukhya, gauṇa. Actually, chief was the bona fide Ācāryas have said, what interpretation they have given. We never accept this. Though, a word has many different meanings. Different, different. But what is the proper meaning here in this usage, that Ācāryas have given it. Bona fide Ācāryas, therefore we accept that. That is Mukhya.
‘lakṣaṇā’ karile svataḥ-prāmāṇya-hāni haya
[Caitanya-caritāmṛta Madhya-līlā 6.137]
They do that thing. They use word jugglery, these people. So, we have this paramparā, bona fide paramparā. Pramāṇika adhikāra. Bona fide authority. This comes in bona fide paramparā. Sat-paramparā. That is all. They have stressed upon this.
Anyhow, Mahāprabhu's philosophy is the highest philosophy acintya-bhedābheda-tattva. Mahāprabhu is Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, He came as Ācārya and established the pure Bhakti-siddhānta. His followers, real followers. They are the real, qualified person, they are the real Ācāryas. And though after disappearance of Mahāprabhu, many apa-sampradāyas comes up. Thirteen apa-sampradāyas. They are not accepted. Āula, Baula, Kaula, Sahajiyā, Gaurāṅga-nāgarī, Sakhibhekī, Cūḍādhārī, Smārta, Jāta-gosāñi, like that. Thirteen. Such danger is there.
Devotee: Gurumaharāj, all these sampradāyas, they worship Caitanya Mahāprabhu?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: They worship, yes.
Devotee: Some of them?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. They worship Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Devotee: But not proper way?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: But they have concocted something, they never follow the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's principles. They have never followed regulative principles. They have just coined something of their own. They chew pāna, tea, coffee, cigarette also, smoking also, they do illicit sex. Like that. ‘Oh, you are Vaiṣṇava? I am Vaiṣṇava, you are Vaiṣṇavī. Let us come and stay together and do bhajana.’ That's all right. They do illicit sex like that. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura have said kaler celā,
Devotee: kalir celā
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: kalir celā matha neda kapni para.
māthā neḍā kāpni parā, tilaka nāke, galāy mālā
eo to’ eka kalira celā
[Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Baul Sangit]
He has shaved his head and śikhā is there, tilaka is there, kaṇṭhī is there and he has mālā, mālā is there, but kalir celā. A follower of Kali, you see.
sahaja-bhajana karche māmu, saṅge laye parera balā
[Baul Sangit, 2]
He is sahajiyā. He doesn't follow regulative principles at all. And taking another woman, you see? Who is the wife of some other person, and taking her with him, doing bhajana. parer bala. He is a kalir celā. They do like that. They say, ‘Oh Mahāprabhu has not said this, such strict regulations.’ In Oriya they have coined some poem, you see. They say Mahāprabhu is very liberal person. He said, ‘Whatever you may do, you just say Hari, Hari, Hari.
māgura-mācha-jhole, yuvati-strīra-kole, beṭā, hariyā, hariyā bol
[Bengali folk proverb]
They say like that. ‘You take this māgura-mācha-jhole, yuvati-strīra-kole. Beṭā, hariyā, hariyā bala.’ Mācha means fish. Māgura-mācha, one type of fish is there which is māgura-mācha. Eh, very tasty. You may eat that māgura-mācha and also you can embrace a maiden, yuvati-strīra-kole, ‘Still you chant Hari, Hari.’ That's all right. These are the apa-sampradāyas or sahajiyās.
That danger is also there, here. After disappearance of Mahāprabhu, Kali enters. Otherwise, Kali cannot survive, so, Mahāprabhu just crossed me. So, he enters and says like this. Created some of the apa-sampradāyas. They are misleading. So dangerous.
Devotee: So, in this understanding, Guru Mahārāja, we should be careful
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Very careful.
Devotee: ... to approach some..
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Many people you see. Why? Oh, these people, they say, ‘Not this, not this, not this. No meat-eating, no gambling, no illicit sex.’ And no intoxication. So why? There are so many Vaiṣṇavas are there. they are not Vaiṣṇava? They are Vaiṣṇava. The have no such restriction. We'll go there. Why we’ll come here.
Devotee: These 13 apa-sampradāyas were named by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Huh?
Devotee: They were pointed out by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura? The 13 apa-sampradāyas?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: They have developed just after this disappearance of Mahāprabhu. One Toṭārāma Gosvāmī is there. He said, ‘toṭā-kāye eḍo saṅga nāhī kari.’ Toṭārāma Gosvāmī may become a... that time, Bhaktivinoda’s time, he was there the same time, contemporary to Bhaktivinoda. He has pointed out these 13, this Toṭārāma Gosvāmī, 13 apa-sampradāyas. Āula, Baula, Kaula, Sahajiyā, Gaurāṅga-nāgarī Sakhibhekī, Smārta, Jāta-gosāñi, like that.
Devotee: Have others came since Bhaktivinoda's time? There's been other sampradāyas ever came since then?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yeah. In Bhaktivinoda, they were there. Yes. This sahajiyā, Caraṇadāsa Bābājī, Rādhā-ramaṇa. They were there during Bhaktivinoda. Bhaja Nitāi-Gaura Rādhe Śyāma, japa Hare Krsna Hare Rama. He introduced this thing. Yeah.
Devotee: Is Anukul Chandra's also apa-sampradāya?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Anukul Chandra is just recent. A recent one. No, he doesn't come under these 13. They are not Vaiṣṇavas. They are not Vaiṣṇavas.
Devotee: Oh, they're not Vaiṣṇavas at all?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: No. Many, many are there. Like this, Yogi..
Devotee: Sai Baba.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Sai Baba. Mahesh Yogi. So many. Yes.
Devotee: Guru-Bhakta told about this philosophy that came with the Vedic Religion Review? You know, this philosophy? Would that also be considered apa-sampradāya?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Apa-sampradāya. Yes.
Devotee: It's apa-sampradāya?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. All mental speculations.
Devotee: They're now writing commentaries on books like that also. Śāstras write commentary. Along their philosophical lines. So that's apa-sampradāya
Devotee: Guru Mahārāj, does it mean, for example, [unclear] devotee of Gaurāṅga Mahāprabhu is a bona fide Ācārya. So, unless one comes to that path, he can really be properly situated in the Caitanya Mahāprabhu paramparā?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes, real paramparā. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, real. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very strict. When he was a preacher, when he was doing ācārya-līlā, He was very strict, very strictly observing the regulative principles. You see, this Jagadānanda Paṇḍita was a very dear devotee, very dear to Mahāprabhu. He himself prepared and brought a big pot, you see, of Candana thaila, very scented Candana thaila. Candana means the sandal. Sandalwood oil.
He brought to the Purī Dhāma and gave it to Govinda, His servant. ‘Govinda, you should take some oil and just massage on the head of Mahāprabhu. His head will be cool, cool, very cool, nice, healthy. And because Mahāprabhu sometimes becomes painted like that, becomes mad sometimes. So, this works very good. Just massage.’ Mahāprabhu came and saw it. ‘What is this?’ Govinda said, ‘Jagadānanda Paṇḍita has brought it for You. It is Candana thaila, sandalwood oil, scented. And he had told me to massage something on Your head to cool down Your brain.’
‘What? Does he want me to become a darī sannyāsī? Just putting scented oil and attract the other sex, being sannyāsī? Does Jagadānanda want me to become darī sannyāsī? Tell him he should give this whole pot of oil to the storehouse of Jagannātha. This will burn in His lamp.’ He didn't touch it, you see. So strict. He was so strict. So, Mahāprabhu was so strict. He didn't touch it. See, Jagadānanda Paṇḍita, two, three times asked Govinda. Govinda said, ‘No, no.’ He refused. He was told to take it back and give it to the storehouse of Lord Jagannātha. This is gone in His lamp, Jagannātha's lamp.
So, he became sulky because he was Satyabhāmā, His wife, Kṛṣṇa's wife. Satyabhāmā - Jagadānanda Paṇḍita is. In this lila, Jagadānanda Paṇḍita with Mahāprabhu, he became sulky. He moved. So, went out and just went to, to his room and locked inside. Didn't take any food, he went right off. Became sulky. Then Mahāprabhu heard this news. Then Mahāprabhu had to break it, the sulkiness. You know, abhimāna-bhanjana. And so Mahāprabhu went there to his residence and just knocked at the door. ‘Jagadānanda, Jagadānanda I have come for bhikṣā. You should give me bhikṣā.’ ‘Oh, Mahāprabhu has personally come.’
Prepare nice, very nice dishes. Many varieties there were. Asked, ‘Mahāprabhu, please sit and then I have prepared food, prasāda for You.’ Mahāprabhu said, ‘Put two leaves side by side. One for me, one for you. We should both sit down and take.’ ‘No, no. You first take. I'll take later. Still two leaves.’ And Mahāprabhu sat down and he was serving, giving more and more. ‘Please taste this. Please taste this. Please taste this.’ Giving so much. Mahāprabhu was afraid. Others are there, like Dāmodara Paṇḍita, they will criticize, ‘Oh, sannyāsī is eating so much.’ That is there. But he is putting more and more. Then Mahāprabhu thought of, ‘If I won't take, again he will become sulky.’ So..
It was Mahāprabhu's līlā. And asked Govinda, ‘You hear and see that Jagadānanda takes prasāda. Then report me.’ Then Jagadānanda took prasāda. Mahāprabhu is so strict. Did not touch that oil, you see. He threw it, that whole pot, that pot broke. So strict. Ideal sannyāsī, so strict. When Mahāprabhu has said this thing. [unclear] like that and doing their own ways. [unclear]. This is Kalir jiva, Kalir-celā. Such things are all going on, you see. Have to be very, very careful.
We are bona fide. Otherwise, one cannot get the mercy of Sriman Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You cannot develop prema. Mahāprabhu will give it - prema by chanting His holy name. Yes?
Devotee: Are there any other institutes that are strictly following the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu other than the Gauḍīya Maṭha and ISKCON? There's other institutes also?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: No other.
Devotee: No other?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: No other.
Devotee: All other are apa-sampradāya.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Only Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas. They follow. Still some, some Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas now, nowadays also not, strictly following.
Devotee: Yes.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: They're debating.
Devotee: Immediately, if you fail to strictly follow, you become a Kalir-celā?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Never follow then Kalir-celā. Never follow, if you won't strictly follow, then become Kalir-celā. Yes. Kali entered.
Devotee: So Guru Maharaj ji, in my understanding strictly following is to accept one who is following strictly as well?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Huh?
Devotee: Strictly following is to accept one who is a bona fide ācārya, who is himself teaching?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. First ācārya must observe in his own life, then teach. Not only speak theoretically. If he will chew pān, then say don't chew pān. Then what is that. If you smoke, hey, don't smoke. What is that? Don't imitate me. I am great, powerful person. I'm like Lord Śiva. I can take poison, but you can't. You don't. Ācārya is somebody who don’t do like that.
āpane ācari’ dharma parere śikhāya
[Caitanya-caritāmṛta Ādi-līlā 3.20]
This Mahāprabhu mentions. You yourself observe in your life, then teach. Don't say theoretically. Though we have this thing, some exceptional cases, those are very powerful personalities, like Lord Śiva, who's so powerful that he could take and drink the ocean-like poison and saved the whole creation. Such powerful person, they are very exceptional person. We should not imitate them. Should not imitate. Like this Puṇḍarīka Vidyānidhi, chewing pān. Very powerful person. He is great mahā-bhāgavata. Hmm. This is exception. Such person, rare persons, we should not imitate them.
We should strictly follow. Then our heart will be cleansed by chanting. Otherwise, our chanting will be offensive if we cannot follow strictly the regulative principles. This is first stage, vaidhī. Then vaidhī will enable you to go to bhāva. Otherwise, you cannot approach that state, bhāva state. And then maturity of bhāva is prem. Vaidhī bhakti, bhava bhakti, prem bhakti, these stages.
So Mahāprabhu was stressing on vaidhī when He was preaching. But when He, in His antyā-līlā, He was always in bhāva, not preaching. In that stage, when one forgets himself, that he is existing, forgets his own existence and enters such bhāva stage. In that stage, this vaidhī will never come up because he has forgotten his own existence, what to speak, anything else. But the beginners, first stage, is strictly followed. Hmm.
One who attains that bhāva stage, automatically this will be neglected, but he never neglect it deliberately. It is only due to bhāva. He cannot know that today is Ekādaśī. He has even forgotten himself and his own existence. What tithi is there today? You see. Sometimes rolling, sometimes laughing, sometimes naked. Sometimes also he has passed stool and urine still rolling on it, in such bhāva stage. One who is in such bhāva stage, he should not be in this local society. He must stay in some solitary place. No person will go there; nobody will see him because one cannot understand him. We cannot understand.
vaiṣṇavera kriyā-mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya
[Caitanya-caritāmṛta Madhya-līlā 23.39]
Very great person, learned person one may be, he cannot understand the activities of vaiṣṇava, what he is doing, who is in that stage, bhāva stage. We should not look at all these things. We cannot understand them. Thus, such personalities are very rare. And they are not ācāryas. They are not preachers. They cannot preach. Preacher should be very strict, himself also and preach. That is preacher. Prachāra. He steps down to the Madhyama adhikāri stage. He discriminates, but Uttama adhikāri, no discrimination.
Devotee: My understanding Gurumaharaj, that means, a pure devotee.. that mean necessary ācārya?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Hm?
Devotee: A pure devotee is not necessarily an ācārya
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Ācārya must be pure.
Devotee: Yeah, but what I'm saying that the pure devotee, someone may be pure devotee but is not ācārya.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: He is ācārya, but he is not good preacher.
Devotee: Ah.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Jīva Gosvāmī, Rūpa Gosvāmī, also, they are not ācāryas? They are famous ācāryas, but they are not preachers. They never preach. They don't come to the society. They are in the jungle, Vṛndāvana jungle. Huh? They are writing books, doing their bhajana, writing books. Mahāprabhu ordered them to do four things. Recover the lost lila-sthana. And write books, Vaiṣṇava-śāstra, Bhakti-śāstra. And establish this, Vigraha’s, temple, vigraha-sevā, and Vaiṣṇava Etiquette. These four things they are doing, so accordingly they are writing books, Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. Sanātana Gosvāmi wrote that is Vaiṣṇava Etiquette. Hm, it's a big book. [indistinct]
Devotee: ācārya should be a pure devotee, Ācārya?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Ācārya means pure devotee. He is uttama-adhikārī but when it comes to preach, he steps down to middle, madhyama-adhikārī stage. Otherwise, he cannot speak, preach. But he is uttama. [indistinct verse] You must accept a śuddha-bhakta, a pure devotee as guru.
Devotee: That verse is from Caitanya-caritāmṛta?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Ah, ah. It's so important. Guru should be uttama-adhikārī. Otherwise, he cannot lead you to the supreme. Last extent, lotus feet of the Lord.
Devotee: So, one class last time I was here. Caitanya-caritāmṛta, it was at the end of Ādi-līlā, Book 1, the end of fourth chapter, speaking about Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa-tattva, you said about the story of guru, he has put down the rope. Tied in lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes, yes.
Deotee: Such a guru is a-
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Prema-bhakti-sūtra. They're known as prema-bhakti-sūtra. One end of that sūtra, sūtra means thread or rope, tied to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa in Goloka Vrndavana. With the other end he has come here. This prema-bhakti-sūtra. He has come here. And you are put into the deep dark well of material existence. Suffering, crying. So he put. He is outside the well. He is not inside well, outside the well.
One who is not in bondage, he can free you from the bondage. Otherwise, if someone in bondage, how can he free you from the bondage? So he is outside the well. You are in the deep, dark well of material existence. So, he puts that rope towards you. ‘Nrhari, hold it tightly. No slackness.’ Then he will pull you up. And to do this thing, the guru has to spend gallons and gallons of spiritual blood. So much. Not an easy thing. If one conditioned soul can be pulled out from that deep, dark well or from the prison house of māyā. Such great, not easy thing. He does so much good. Only good, para-upakāra. Instead of opening thousands of hospitals and doing this thing and this thing, we can pull out one from the prison house of māyā. Then what a great good, real good they do.
Devotee: Meaning the guru should be very, very dear to Lord Kṛṣṇa.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Oh, then how can you get it?
Devotee: Must be a very geed servant.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. Very dear. Intimate. Yes. Otherwise, how can he do it? He can do it. All right.
Devotee: Jaya!
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Prabhupāda will teach you. Prabhupāda will teach, Vaiṣṇava will teach you. Prabhupāda is Vaiṣṇava Ācārya. Ācārya will teach you. Yes. Still teaching. Yes. If you are really eager, anxious to have it, you can get it. Otherwise, no. I was telling that day, if you are not hungry, if many nice dishes will be served you, you cannot enjoy it. Can you? You have no hungry. There is no hunger in your stomach. Many nice, delicious dishes we serve, but you cannot have it. If you are not thirsty, if I give you nice śarbat, can you have it? No.
So, hunger must be there and thirst must be there, then you can get and taste it. So, you are not hungry and you are not thirsty. Then how do you say? This is very deeper part. Everything tattva. Yes. Nrhari? Ah? Yes. One should be hungry for it. Gopīnātha is very hungry.
Devotee: I'm very hungry.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: He is very greedy.
Devotee: I beg your mercy on this one.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: I beg your mercy, Gopīnātha Prabhu. You are my brother. You see? You should be hungry and thirsty, greedy. Nrhari, develop such greed. Give up this material greed and develop this greed. Then you can get how is it, how Prabhupāda is here. How he is teaching. I went to invite...
Devotee: Simhiketana..
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Um, Simhiketana Mahārāja. Yes. He is disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda Gosvāmī. He is 84 years old. He is still here.
Devotee: He is Prabhupāda's godbrother?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: He is my Guru Mahārāja's godbrother. Simhiketana Mahārāja, he is bābājī. He is paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa-bābājī.
Devotee: Where does he live?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Here. Some 30 kilometers away from here. Some 30 kilometres away from here. He will come here on 20th. I have invited him to come to this function. He will come here on 20th. I will send him car and he will come. He will preside over the function. I have requested him and he has accepted. He is paramahaṁsa-bābājī. Hmm.
So, I went there with our that printing material, brochures some leaflets. I gave him, invited him. So, he said, ‘Oh, still my Guru Mahārāja is teaching me.’ He said by looking at that, seeing that brochure we have printed. ‘Still my Guru Mahārāja is teaching me.’ He said that. You see? Then? Where is Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī? He says, ‘Still my Guru Mahārāja is teaching me. Oh, my Guru Mahārāja is teaching me,’ he said. Dinabandhu? Yes.
Oh, Prabhupāda left. Ah, he left… As these atheists say or the so-called, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. Oh, where is that Kṛṣṇa? That Kṛṣṇa came and that Kṛṣṇa died. [indistinct foreign language] Died. Where is He? Like that. Like that.
Devotee: Guru Mahārāja, I was giving a class in Adelaide, South New Wales, and I was mentioning 5th canto from this Bhāgavatam, the Ṛṣabhadev instructing to his son.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes.
Devotee: And he was describing that the most important aspect of spiritual life is to seek out the association of paramahaṁsa-sādhu and surrender to him.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes.
Devotee: And one devotee was arguing with me after the class, during the class. He says, ‘Actually, we have Prabhupāda's books. So that's the bottom line. That's the most important thing, is read Prabhupāda's books and everything is there.’
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Hmm.
Devotee: So, I was explaining to him like that, but how can you understand the books—
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Hmm.
Devotee: ... without the mercy of a sādhu? So, the real essence is to get sādhusanga always, although it created this argument that actually Prabhupāda is still here and we can get Prabhupāda's full association just by his books. We don't need sādhus.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: They can't get association. So, I cited that. Prabhupāda in his purport wrote this today morning. Can anybody understand? Nobody can understand what Prabhupāda has said. You can't understand. So, ask Prabhupāda. Let him explain you. No? If you can ask, he can explain you. But you ask him. You said, ‘Oh, Prabhupāda left. Couldn't I ask?’ You can't see Prabhupāda. How can you ask? Who will explain you? Then?
Devotee: I mean, Guru Mahārāja in spiritual world, everything is personal.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes.
Devotee: So it's easy to understand that. Does it make previous ācārya or spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa comes in the form of a person.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yeah. Definitely. Always there.
Devotee: So Prabhupāda's message should be in the form of a..
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes.
Devotee: ... a devotee of Prabhupāda.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes, yes, yes. Always there. That's why I tell how that Simhiketana Mahārāja said these things. Immediately say, ‘Oh, still my Guru Mahārāja is teaching me.’ He said, ‘I have to go and teach myself.’ You see? One should develop such consciousness. Question of consciousness. And question of vision. You can see also. Yes. Yes. Definitely. If you are not hungry and thirsty, how it will come to you? Though it gets before you, you cannot have it, because you have no hunger, no thirst for it. Isn't it? You cannot have it.
Devotee: That is called fasting.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: If someone is hungry and so thirsty, he will run to the water. Water will never come to him. He'll run to the water. Where is water? Isn't it?
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. He is jñāna, vairāgya and prayojana-mukti. They're saying this way. Sambandha is nirviśeṣa-brahman and abhidheya is jñāna, vairāgya and prayojana-mukti. They're saying this way, but really it is sambandha Kṛṣṇa, abhidheya bhakti, prayojana prema. Anyhow, Mahāprabhu has showered His mercy on them.
Devotee: So, unless one is an elevated devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, because we understand how was Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya very elevated māyāvādī, very pandit.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes.
Devotee: Unless one is in that level of devotee..
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Spiritualists. Yes, I have got, it is there. Book is there. Yes, nothing, no need. Yes. So? Yes?
Devotee: It's often seems that it's basically a desire for independence and not actually surrendering.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: No surrender, no.
Devotee: It's an excuse.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes. They are abusing their independence. Abusing it. Not utilizing properly. Proper use - abuse. Two things are, they're abusing.
Devotee: They seem to use it as an excuse that Śrīla Prabhupāda is still here in his books, so we don't need to surrender to anyone else.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yes, surrender to his books. And Prabhupāda said, ‘Go and approach to a paramahaṁsa-sādhu.’ So, follow Prabhupāda. Then you are true follower. Otherwise, you are not true follower, only lip follower. Gopinath? The lip follower. Not true follower.
Devotee: Guru Maharaja, they're almost like frightened, scared to admit
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yeah. Yeah.
Devotee: ... that they now have to give up their proceedings.
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Yeah. As you sow so shall you reap. What to do? It is personal thing, individual. It is personal and individual. Nothing impersonal. According to one's hunger and thirst, it will be available. Otherwise, not. Thank you. I have to go do my work, and I have a program to do outside.
Devotee: Jaya! Jaya Patitapāvana Śrīla Gurudev ki Jaya!
Devotee: Jaya!
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Samaveta bhakta-vṛnda kī jaya!
Devotee: Jaya!
Śrīmad Gour Govinda Swāmī: Śrīla Prabhupādaji Mahārāja kī jaya!