Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: My question: Is there bhakti here in the material world? What do you say?
Devotee: It's not to be found in the material world.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes, Material world means manifestation of māyā-śakti. Do you think that bhakti is the work of māyā-śakti?
Devotee: No.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: So how it will be here?
(FIND A PICTURE WITH GURUDEVA AND DINA KRSNA DAS)
Devotee: What the demons are doing in the world nowadays with all their bombs and they are destroying the forests. And there are also so many abortions and slaughterhouses. Sometimes we wonder whether everything will ever be normal again. These people are so crazy, they are destroying everything. It's very difficult not to be pessimistic.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: It is not at all a fit place for any gentleman to live, in this material world. In every step, there is danger. It's a dangerous position, dangerous situation. This is materialistic existence, pade pade vipadam - every step there is danger. Such a nasty place, this material world.
* see SB 10.14.58
Because it is a prison house created by Māyā. Do you think a prison house is a very good place that is created by Māyā? By the mercy of the Lord, prison houses are here, so there punishment is inflicted.
Devotee: A lot of Devotees, they say that Prabhupāda said that there will be a golden age, an era where everything will become like Satya-yuga.
And some Devotee, they think that when will this ever manifest because so much problems. The argument they give, 'they are using all the oil...'
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: When such a pure devotee of Krishna will come, He can deliver the whole Universe. He was such a pure devotee. Otherwise, it is a nasty place, in every step there is danger.
Devotee: Is it also predicted in the Vedas that there will be a golden era? Is it a Vedic prediction? I know Prabhupāda said it and that is enough for us but some devotee are questioning whether that is from the Vedas or not.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga, Dvapara-yuga, Kali-yuga. If all people will accept bhakti-yoga, Mahāprabhu's teachings, teachings of Mahāprabhu, then there will be a golden era. Golden avatār is Mahāprabhu. Otherwise how can we expect so?
Devotee: In that prediction, Śrila Prabhupada said about, there will be ten thousand years of golden age. This is in the Vedas, Guru Mahārāja?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Anyway, sādhu says. Sādhu sees things, he has such vision, transcendental vision, pure, not material vision. And Vyāsadeva saw what will happen in Kali-yuga, so he wrote. One who has such vision, he says, because he sees things clearly, with Clear prospect.
Accept it and put faith in his words - sādhu-śāstra-guru vakhya. Put faith in the words of sādhu-śāstra-guru. In this, four defects are not found. So he is free from the four defects.
Devotee: Guru Mahārāja, one devotee was saying that it's there in Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa that Mother Ganga goes to Krishna and complains that "In Kali-yuga, I have to take the sins of so many sinful people."
Ganga complains to Krishna. So Krishna says that "Don't worry, there will be a ten thousand year golden era where one of the Devotee will go and spread My name. Then there will be a community of Vaishnavas.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Mahāprabhu says that thing. So this preaching is needed, so spread it. If people will accept then there will be a golden era. It's Mahāprabhu's teachings, Otherwise how can you expect a golden era? Then we can expect that only, if all accept and we preach. So spread, spread, spread then we will expect golden era. That is the mercy of such a devotee, Vaiṣṇava, sādhu, dear devotee of Mahāprabhu. Only he can do it, nobody else can do it.
If he showers his causeless mercy, then he can deliver the whole Universe. But, bhāgyavān jīva. brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona, If one is a Bhāgyavān, a fortunate soul, a fortunate jīva gets it.
guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya
bhakti-latā-bīja*
* Cc M. 19.151
He gets the prasād, mercy of guru and Krishna and he accepts bhakti and comes to the path of bhakti. Bhāgyavān, fortunate means what? What do you mean by that?
Devotee: causeless mercy
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: He comes to sādhu-saṅga. He comes to sādhu, accepts sādhu, surrenders unto sādhu. He is Bhāgyavān, fortunate. If someone won't come or won't accept a sādhu, then he is most unfortunate.
Therefore we say, those who accept this Mahāprabhu's line, Mahāprabhu's teachings, and accept a guru, a dear devotee of Chaitanya Mahāprabhu and does bhakti-sādhana under his guidance, he is in Satya-yuga. He is not in Kali-yuga.
Then? So he is in the golden era. No influence of Kali there. He strictly follows four regulative principles. These are the places where Kali resides. So where is Kali? No Kali. So free from the influence of Kali means he is in Satya-yuga.
In Satya-yuga, those who don't follow it, they are in Kali-yuga. And in Kali-yuga, those who follow, they are in Satya-yuga. This is Kali-yuga. But those who follow this Mahāprabhu's instructions under the guidance of guru, follow the regulative principles, observes these strictly and surrender unto the holyname, taking shelter of a Vaishnava guru, Gaura priya jana, dear devotee of Gaurāṅga, he is free from the influence of Kali. He is in Satya-yuga, he is in golden era. Those who are in Kali-yuga, they are in the iron age.
Devotee: And those who follow are in Satya-yuga.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: You should understand this thing. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti is durlabha, sudurlabha. It's very rarely achieved. Not so easy. koṭiṣu api mahā-mune* - Out of crores of, crores of men, one may be available.
* SB 6.14.5
a Kṛṣṇa-bhakta, sudurlabha, very, very rare. Very, very rare. How many are attracted towards Krishna? All are attracted towards Māya. Those who are in the marginal position, this side, that side. They sometimes looking towards Māyā, sometimes here, sometimes there. So? But, if someone is intelligent or has some previous sukṛti, he will get it by the mercy of sādhu.
But sādhu is very rarely achieved, very rarely. He is a rare personality - a dear devotee of Krishna. Not easily available. No, very rare. One who gets his mercy then he can develop krsna-bhakti. he is Bhāgyavān. He is fortunate, bhāgyavān jīva.
brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva*
What do you say, Jagadatma? Is there bhakti in the material world?
* Cc M 19.151
Devotee: Oh, in the material world now. Unless somebody comes here from some place else, brings it here.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Here is no bhakti. Because bhakti is the activity of svarūpa-śakti, not the illusory energy, māya-śakti. This material world means what? A manifestation of māya-śakti, a transformation of māya-śakti. So how can it be available here? No question at all.
So it's very rare, durlabha. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti sudurlabha, rarely achieved. Those who are very, very fortunate jīvas, they get it by the mercy of such sādhus, dear Devotee, pure Devotee of Krishna. Otherwise it's not available here.
Who's part and parcel are jīvas?
Devotee: They are Krishna's.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Krishna's? Brahma, Paramātmā, Bhagavān. So who's part and parcel? Either Brahma, or Paramātmā or Krishna? You say Krishna's.
Devotee: The jīva? Who's part and parcel? Of Krishna.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Of Paramātmā. Not Krishna.
Devotee: Not Krishna.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: No
Devotee: But I always were told that and in Bhagavad-gītā Krishna says, oh, Prabhupada says that Paramātmā is only manifested in this material world.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes
Devotee: So He is not eternal.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Who?
Devotee: Paramātmā
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Paramātmā is eternal. Jīvas are eternal.
Devotee: Paramātmā is eternal? Jīvas are eternal?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Jīvas are eternal, Paramātmā is eternal. Paramātmā is the plenary portion of the portion of Krishna, so eternal. Jīvas are also eternal.
Devotee: But jīvas are differentiated parts, not svāṁśa. Plenary portions, svāṁśa and differentiated parts, vibhinnāṁśa.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Jīvas are vibhinnāṁśa, differentiated parts, not svāṁśa. Paramātmā is svāṁśa, and His parts and parcels are jīvas. So, Paramātmā acts here. Paramātmā acts in this material world. Paramātmā is Vishnu.
He glances over māyā-śakti and makes her pregnant, so creation is there and Jīvas come out.
So they have expanded from Him And in the end of creation they go back into Him, into His body. They rest there and again next creation, they again come out. So they have expanded from Him, not from Krishna. So sometimes Prabhupada writes it like that, that we are part and parcel of Krishna. Paramātmā means Krishna.
Krishna in the form of Paramātmā. That's why he says like that. It is a very subtle tattva, very subtle tattva.
Devotee: Just as Krishna has His consort Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, and Nārāyana has His Laksmi, so they are different expansions of Vishnu-tattva and shakti?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: They are expansions of Rādhārāṇī. So the living entities who are expanded within this material world are marginal. They are marginal. Three main potencies, energies: parā, aparā, taṭasthā. Taṭasthā means marginal; they are jīvas. parā means superior. Aparā means inferior; that is material energy or inferior energy.
These three are main, but multifarious energies are there.
So manifestations of parā-śakti, superior energy, is the spiritual world. Manifestation of aparā-śakti, inferior energy or material energy, or illusory energy, is the illusory world or material world.
Similarly, manifestation of taṭasthā-śakti, taṭasthā means jīva-śakti - is jīva jagat.
Devotee: Just like Vishnu and Krishna, they all have male and female (bodies). But do the jivas have a male and female bodies? Material bodies?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: They have material bodies only! That's all!
Devotee: Their bodies are male or female?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: The jīvas are neither male not female. Or, as a śakti-tattva, he is female.
Devotee: Then it has a female side.
Devotee: so sweet understanding.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: So, now my point is, as a manifestation of parā-śakti, superior energy is the spiritual world. And manifestation of aparā-śakti, inferior enery or material energy, is the material world. Similarly, manifestation of taṭasthā-śakti is jīva jagat.
Devotee: - It falls somewhere in between. Is it so that we were originally with Krishna one time and we fell down and then we generated?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Nobody falls down from there. No. All the falling is from taṭasthā, from marginal situation. Always fall downs are from the marginal situation, not from the spiritual world, no.
Because they are under antarānga-śakti. There is no māya at all. How they will chose māya there? Choice is in the marginal area because two are there.
Margin means two are in touch. Margin of the lake, margin of the sea, means water and land, two are in touch. That is margin. Similarly marginal means two are in touch, superior and inferior.
If you go inside the sea, do you find there is margin? There is only water; no land is there. So, going away from the margin, do you think there is water? It is land only.
Only in margin two are in touch. So marginal means two are in touch. That means superior and inferior. And jīva is in marginal area. Choice is there.
Devotee: eternally? No choice in the spiritual world or no choice in the material world.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: No choice in the material world!... Where it is? It is the material world. Choice is always there in marginal area. So how can one fall down from there (from the spiritual world)?
There is no choice. You've already chosen the correct thing. No choice. No more choice, finished. Incorrect choice, you chose māya. When two things are there, the question of choice comes.
When there is only one thing what is the question of choice? Only one thing is there. Where is the question of choice?
Devotee: So for those living entities in the spiritual world, they have no knowledge of this place?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Maybe knowledge, what is that? mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca Krishna says, "From Me comes rememberance, forgetfulness and knowledge. Knowledge comes from Me." * BG 15.15
They never think of this thing. Why they think of there? They have only one thought: the thought of the Supreme Lord Krishna. They only think of Krishna continuously.
Though they know everything. From Krishna, it comes: rememberance, forgetfulness and knowledge.
When Krishna Yogamāyā acts there in Vrajabhūmi, all are forgetful of everything. "The Supreme Personality of Godhead? No. He is my Son, my Friend, my Husband." It is Yogamāyā's activity.
How do you say it is knowledge? It's something like this. We cannot conceive of this thing.
Inconceivable on our part. We cannot understand.
Devotee: It is like with a prison house. Prison house is there in Bhubaneshwar somewhere, I don't know. I never think of that thing, I never think of the people in there either, that they are suffering. But it must be somewhere.
Must be. But I never think of that place.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes. Why should you think of this?
Why should I think of it? We are not criminals. When you will commit crime then you will go there. "Oh, this is prison house. I am brought now here."
Devotee: What exactely does 'nitya-baddha', this term means?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: nitya-baddha: eternally conditioned.
That means we've always been here, suffering? From time immemorial. You cannot trace out the beginning. Kṛṣṇa bhuli' sei jīva anādi-bahirmukha*. Anādi means you cannot trace out its beginning, anādi. No ādi, no beginning. It therefore says 'nitya'. anādi: from time immemorial.
* СC M 20.117
But they can be delivered. Yes. Then you will become baddha-mukta. One category comes up.
'baddha-mukta' means: first they were conditioned, then they were liberated, 'baddha-mukta'. 'nitya-mukta' means eternally liberated. They never become baddhas, conditioned. If there would have been then another category would be there, 'mukta-baddha'. Yes. But no such category. No ācārya says like that. No śāstra also says. But ācārya say 'baddha-mukta'.
Yes, one who is baddha, conditioned, he will be mukta. Then he is baddha-mukta. He is turned.
Another category.
Devotee: But then can a baddha-mukta fall down again?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Baddha-mukta can fall down from the taṭasthā area. Those who go to Brahman. Brahman is taṭasthā area. From there falling down.
And Jiva Goswami says in Bhakti-sandarbha, and also in Priti-sandarbha, 'this jivan mukta falls down.' 'jivan-mukta' means he was baddha and he became mukta in this material world. But if he commits aparādha, he falls down.
Devotee: One thing I heard many years ago was that before a living entity enters into the Vaikuṇṭha or into the Goloka, round, he has to enter into a Bhauma-līlā within this Universe. Into Bhauma Vaikuṇṭha, or Bhauma Vrindāvana.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes, Bhauma Vaikuṇṭha; he may enter. From there, fall down is there, if someone commits aparādha. That's Bhauma Vaikuṇṭha.
Devotee: So when we hear of the fall of Jagai and Madhai, it's from that place?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: (Jagai and Madhai) Jay and Vijay, they are at the door, doorkeepers, and that is not fall down. That is Vishnu's desire. That's not fall down. No, that's not fall down.
Krishna, Vishnu desired such thing because He will fight and get pleasure. If the opponents will not be of equal strength there will be no pleasure. So His own men became such thing; they fell down, such curse is there.
Four Kumāras came. They became demons for three lives. At that time, they fight with Vishnu. Thereby they give pleasure to Lord Vishnu because they are Vishnu's own men. That's a different thing. That's not a fall down. No. Prabhupāda has said, that's not fall down.
Devotee: Have the living entities been to this Bhauma Vaikuṇṭha before?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes. From Bhauma Vaikuṇṭha, some come down from there. So from Bhauma Vaikuṇṭha, they fall down.
Devotee: When we hear of great saintly persons coming to preach within this material world, we hear that they are of very high category.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: They are the associates. Very dear, very intimate associates of Krishna. Out of mercy they come down here. Or by the order. - This is an inconceivable thing as there are many Vaikuṇṭha, Innumerable Vaikuṇṭha lokas are there.
Devotee: Who is coming from there?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Not many.
Devotee: Those jīvas who are nitya-muktas, one time they made a choice to become nitya-mukta?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: No, no, no, no, no.
Devotee: Because I understood that all jīvas are taṭasthā-śakti. But some they chose Māyā and some chose Krishna, at a certain time.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Choice is there in taṭasthā area.
Devotee: So not all jīvas are situated in taṭasthā, right?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: You see, jīvas are eternal and they are always everywhere, eternally everywhere. In Vaikuṇṭha, in the spiritual world, in taṭasthā area and in material world also.
How do you say that there were some time when there were no jīvas in the spiritual world, no jīvas here in material world, all are in taṭasthā area? You think so like that? That's not the thing. These are all material thoughts. The material mind thinks so. No such thing.
Devotee: No beginning?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: No, no, no. Eternal means what? What do you understand?
Devotee: No beginning and no end.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: It is always like that. No beginning; always there. No past, no future. Only present.
Devotee: So I have always been in the material world?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes, you were always in the material world.
Devotee: It doesn't seem fair.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: You are a conditioned soul, you are always in the material world.
Devotee: Why is it that I am put here to suffer but some jīvas, they are eternally and blissfully with Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't seem to be very fair.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: You are unfortunate, they are fortunate. So you are suffering.
Devotee: Why some of us and not them? Why we are here suffering and they are there having a blissful life?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: You have sown so, so you should reap. As you sow so you'll reap. When you made a bad bargain when you choose Māyā, so you fell into this condition. So? Now you choose Krishna and you go there.
Devotee: So they had actually choose Krishna? They had a choice so they choose Krishna?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Choice is there in marginal area. When two are there, there is a question of choice. Otherwise there is no choice. If only one is there then what is the choice?
Devotee: So we are in the margin? We are approaching the margin?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes. Otherwise, when two things are there, choice comes up. When there is only one thing then what is the question of choice? Only one thing is there. Then?
Associates of Krishna, those who are dear Devotee of Krishna, those who are eternally under antarāṅga-śakti, they are always there. Eternally. There is no question of choice.
They are eternally there. I said, jīvas are eternal; they are everywhere eternally - in the spiritual world, in the material world and in the taṭasthā area. The jīvas in the spiritual world are much more, much more.
Because that is three fourth. The material world is only one fourth.
Devotee: My understanding has always been that this material world is necessary, It's part of Krishna.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes, this material energy is a manifestation and necessary because some will violate. Some will abuse their minute independence. For them, place must be there. And this is the place.
Devotee: is it correct to say that this material world is created for Krishna's pleasure?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: No baba. What pleasure is here? Well Krishna, He likes to fight. When Krishna comes here, He comes with His dham, with His entourage, with His men, with His associates and gets pleasure there with them.
Though He is here, He is not in the material world, He is in His Dham. His Dham descends. No pleasure here in the material world. dhuḥkālaya, prison house, baba. How can you get pleasure in a prison house?
Devotee: No. It's just that in Isopanisad it says that the Supreme Lord is perfect and complete. He is completely perfect. So this is a part of Him. This is also part of Krishna.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes, part of His energy. It's external energy.
Devotee: So, because He is complete everything must be there.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: It's the external energy. That is thrown off. Internal, Krishna is always in the internal energy, not in external. It is thrown off in a distant place, thrown off.
Alright, thank you.
Devotee: I don't really understand this…
Devotee: You were telling about jīvan mukta; but, Druva Mahārāja, in the war with the Yakshas. When he was fighting with the Yaksas then he became uncesseralily angry. But then he didn't fall, he went back to the spiritual world
Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Dhruva was not jīvan mukta, Jīvan-mukta means they were in material world. They were conditioned then they became liberated. And they are still here. That is jīvan muktas. If they commit some aparādha, they will fall down. Again they will be put into bondage. That is in Bhakti-sandarbha and Prīti-sandarbha, Jīva Goswami has said. Otherwise nitya-mukta, there is no question of bondage. Ācāryas has not said so..
Devotee: It's only a pastime. It's only a pastime that Dhruva Mahārāja became very angry?
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja: Yes, that is teachings there. Dhruva Mahārāja became angry therefore Manu came, his grand-father. Manu came and said, "Don't be angry. Don't kill them. Yaksas means the friends of Śivaji, sakha. So, Śivaji is a Vaiṣṇava, so you will commit aparādha. Don't do it."
Then he accepted so he ceased fighting. Then he prayed to Yaksas, "Please shower blessings on me that I will develop bhakti.