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890404 - SB 7.7.23 - Difference Between Matter and Spirit - Bhubaneswar

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami:

Translation:
There are two kinds of bodies for every individual soul — a gross body made of five gross elements and a subtle body made of three subtle elements. Within these bodies, however, is the spirit soul. One must find the soul by analysis, saying, “This is not it. This is not it.” Thus one must separate spirit from matter.

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda
As previously stated, svarṇaṁ yathā grāvasu hema-kāraḥ kṣetreṣu yogais tad-abhijña āpnuyāt. An expert in the study of soil can find out where gold is and then dig there. He can then analyze the stone and test the gold with nitric acid. Similarly, one must analyze the whole body to find within the body the spirit soul. In studying one’s own body, one must ask himself whether his head is his soul, his fingers are his soul, his hand is his soul, and so on. In this way, one must gradually reject all the material elements and the combinations of material elements in the body. Then, if one is expert and follows the ācārya, he can understand that he is the spiritual soul living within the body. The greatest ācārya, Kṛṣṇa, begins His teachings in Bhagavad-gītā by saying:



dehino ’smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati



"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." (Bg. 2.13)

The spirit soul possesses the body and is within the body. This is the real analysis. The soul never mixes with the bodily elements. Although the soul is within the body, it is separate and always pure. One must analyze and understand his self. This is self-realization. Neti neti is the analytical process of rejecting matter. By expertly conducting such an analysis, one can understand where the soul is. One who is not expert, however, cannot distinguish gold from earth, nor the soul from the body.

(3.10, repeats śloka and translation: dehas tu sarva-saṅghāto... there are two kinds of bodies...)

(3.50) This is the science about the spirit soul, ātma-jñāna. How? Who is an expert person? As an example has been given in the previous verse: svarṇaṁ yathā grāvasu hema-kāraḥ kṣetreṣu yogais tad-abhijña āpnuyāt. An expert in the study of soil can find out where gold is and dig there. He can analyze the stone and test the gold with nitric acid. Similarly, one must analyze the whole body to find within the body the spirit soul.

This is the process. One expert person, one who is expert in understanding the science of the soul, can understand and find out where the soul is within this body. This body is a material body; it is a combination of material elements, isn’t it? There are two types of bodies. One is the gross body, and the other is the subtle body. The elements of the gross body are five gross elements, isn’t it? What are those? What are the five gross elements?

Devotee: Fire, air, earth, ether, and water.

Gour Govinda Swami: Kṣiti, ap, teja, mārut, vyoma — these are the technical Sanskrit terms. Kṣiti means earth, ap — water, teja — what do you say? — heat (fire), mārut — air, vyoma — sky, ether. These are the five gross elements of this gross material body. And there are three subtle elements, the subtle material body. What are they?

Devotee: Mind, intelligence, and false ego.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, manaḥ, buddhi, ahaṅkāra — mind, intelligence, and false ego. These are the elements of the two kinds of bodies. Within this body, these are all material elements. So this body is the combination of material elements — so this is known as the material body, isn’t it? As this is known as a material thing... what is the difference between matter and spirit? What is the difference?

Devotee: What is the question?

Gour Govinda Swami: What is the difference between matter and spirit?

Devotee: The spirit is always conscious.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes!

Devotee: Matter is unconscious.

Gour Govinda Swami: Matter is not conscious; matter is unconscious. The spirit is conscious. This is the difference between matter and spirit. Do you follow?
So, this is a material thing; it is not conscious. But you are conscious. Though you have a material body, still you are conscious. Why is it so? Why? How is your material body conscious? Why is this not conscious?

Devotee: Because of the soul.

Gour Govinda Swami: Because here, there is no soul. So this thing is not conscious. But there is soul inside your body, this material body, so you are conscious. Where is the soul, and which is the soul? Is our head the soul? Our ears, soul or nose, soul, hands, soul, belly? Which is the soul? How can you know which is the soul and where the soul is? Do you know?

Here, Prahlāda Mahārāja says: one who is an expert can. As an expert geologist can find out where there is gold inside the earth, you see, similarly, one who is an expert spiritualist, an ācārya, knows and can find out where the soul is. Otherwise, one cannot.

So, many so-called scientists who are considered very great in this material world say — the medical practitioners or medical scientists, those who dissect this body — in the hospital, they dissect the body to find the soul. They say, “Where is the soul? Where is the soul?” — no soul. They cannot find the soul. “We dissected the whole body! We examined very carefully, very minutely, this body — where is the soul? You people say — soul, soul, soul! Show me the soul. We have never found it.” Then, what can you say to them? How will you answer them?

Devotee: They have to listen to the experts who know how to find the soul in the body.

Gour Govinda Swami: Bolo!

Devotee: They have to listen to an ācārya who is qualified.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yeah. We may say, alright, you are expert doctors, medical scientists, isn’t it? But still, your education is not sufficient to find out the soul. If you dissect the whole body, you cannot find it. You should approach an ācārya who knows the science of the soul.

You don’t know the science of the soul. You may know the science of this material body, but you don’t know the science of the soul — how the soul, which is eternally conscious, is inside the body and making this material body conscious. You don’t know it, isn’t it?

And you answer my question now: Why is this body, when the soul gets out of it, dead? You declare at that time, “Oh, this person is dead.” What is that death? What is it — that the person was alive and now he is dead? How do you say it? You observe... new perception — no, it’s not going on, breathing has stopped. By this, you declare — yes, it is dead. And you feel the pulse — no, it is not working. The body is now cold, no warmth. Heat is gone... So, it is that.

Why is it so? Why was it not so previously? All the breathing process was going on. How was there heat in the body? How was it moving? Why is it not moving now? Why has it stopped? What can you say? What is that death? That medical scientist cannot answer. Can he answer? He cannot answer. Because he doesn’t know the science of the soul. Though he dissects the body and analyzes very minutely, still, he cannot find the soul. “Where is the soul? Where is the soul?”

And how, by the presence of the soul, the material body has become conscious and alive?
When the soul leaves the body, it is as good as a material thing. It is just like this āsana or chair and similar other things — no consciousness. This is the science. But who can understand? One who is an expert spiritualist and knows the science of the soul, he understands how the soul is there and where it is.

Have you seen the soul? Have you seen it?

Devotee: The soul?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, you have seen it? Then you are an expert spiritualist.

Devotee: By symptoms.

Gour Govinda Swami: By symptoms. By symptoms, you know, isn’t it? By symptoms, we can know the wind. Have you seen the wind? It’s... no... (14.40). But as the branches of a tree move, they shake. And we feel the wind blows. It’s cold — hot wind or cold wind, like that, isn’t it? We can say, yes, there is wind, but we cannot see the wind or its form.

Similarly, by symptoms, you understand the soul — how it is inside the body, but you have not seen the soul. If you are saying you have seen the soul, you are lying. You have not seen the soul. That means you are not an expert spiritualist; you are just a hypocrite. You are posing yourself. You are posing yourself as an expert spiritualist. You will be caught red-handed. Such dangerous persons — the hypocrites — are dangerous. They should be hanged because they bewilder the entire population of human beings. Don’t be so. Don’t be a hypocrite! Be a pure spiritualist and see the soul — how it is there inside the material body.

Can you say what is the form of the soul? How does it look? Can you say? No! It is very, very subtle. Therefore, by dissecting the whole body, the doctor — the medical doctor — cannot see it, cannot find it out — neti neti neti — that is said: “No, this is not, this is not, this is not.”

Where is the soul? Who is the soul? Just cut off the head and cut up the leg and dissect the soul — “No, no, no, neti neti — no, this is not, this is not the soul, this is not.” Cut up the hand towards the chest, body, like that, everything cut and thrown — “No, this is not the soul, this is not the soul.” So, where is the soul? “No soul. I cut the whole body, dissected, analyzed, but no soul!” Where is the soul? You cannot know it, you cannot find it out.

Only an expert spiritualist knows the soul, sees the soul, and where it is. So subtle, very subtle. Vedas say: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca. Take the tip of a hair and make it a hundred parts, divide it into a hundred parts. And then again, divide the one part a hundred times. That is the dimension of the soul. How subtle it is! One cannot see it with these material eyes. So subtle! We cannot conceive how it can be. The tip of a hair, making it into a hundred parts. Then every part again into a hundred. How will it be? Can we conceive? We cannot conceive it. It is beyond our conception, isn’t it? So subtle. We cannot even divide it into a hundred parts. Do you have such an instrument to do it? No.

We cannot do it, we cannot see it, we cannot find it. This proves that we are not expert persons to do it, to see it. Only one who is an expert spiritualist knows it, sees it. Very subtle, very subtle. And that is the spiritual spark. That is the conscious thing. And that very subtle conscious thing is here in this material body, making the whole material body conscious.

And when it gets out of this body, it is the final liberation of the material elements, isn’t it? As good as this (knocks on the table) matter of....

So, this is that. The five gross elements then mix — ap (water), air, like that. And the subtle elements mix with the subtle things.

And that soul, the spirit soul, is eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul. The Supreme Soul — nityaḥ nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Upaniṣad says). There is one supreme eternal, and there are many subtle eternal beings — nityānām. Nityaḥ nityānām — singular and plural numbers are used in Sanskrit. Eko bahūnāṁ... cetanaś cetanānām — there is one supreme conscious being and many minute conscious beings. The supreme conscious being, the Supersoul or Paramātmā or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the minute conscious beings are the spirit souls. They are eternally conscious.

And those minute spirit souls are subordinate to the Supreme Spirit Soul. Jīvanām Vyāsa-sūtra — Vyāsadeva has formulated the sūtra. Sūtra you know? Formula. Vedānta-sūtra. (?..21.40) Jīvanām... bhakti... hetu īśvaraḥ... kāruṇyam... siddhaye. The Supreme Soul or Supreme Personality of Godhead is supremely independent. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ anādir ādir govindam sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Brahma-saṁhitā says). Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is supreme in all respects. He is a supreme thief.

You are a thief? Subtle thief? Little thief? Kṛṣṇa is the supreme thief! He is the Supreme Lord in all respects. How He steals butter from the houses of the gopīs. How He steals the garments of the gopīs. How He steals my heart, your heart, everybody’s heart. Citta-cora! Heart-stealer! Is He stealing your heart, Muralī? (laughs) Is He stealing? No? He is not stealing your heart? (laughs). You don’t know? Your heart is seeing this tape recorder. If someone will steal, you cannot understand it, you cannot move it — “No, I don’t know, my tape recorder is stolen!” You don’t know it, you can’t know it (?..23.32). Can’t you know it? Why don’t you say yes or no? You can know it — “Yes, where it is, my tape recorder — someone has stolen it.”

But how can you know that your heart is stolen by Kṛṣṇa, the supreme stealer? The supreme thief? You don’t know it. You can understand it — how He steals. He is in your heart. (laughs). You should be an expert spiritualist, then you can understand it. You should take training. Go to that college and take training. This is the college.

Devotee: here.

Gour Govinda Swami: here. (laughs). Vyasa-sūtra is that: repeats above śloka, jīvanam (...?...24.24). He is the supremely independent Kṛṣṇa, and the spirit soul, being His eternal part and parcel, is also minutely independent.

So, one may ask this question: "Why does Kṛṣṇa give such independence, minute independence, to the spirit soul?" That question again arises: "What is the distinction between a jīva and nir-jīva?" Between spirit soul, between spirit and matter, between living and non-living. What is the difference between living and non-living? Spirit and matter?
You are a living body, and this is a non-living dead body. What is the difference?

Devotee: I am conscious.

Gour Govinda Swami: You've already said that thing. You are conscious, but when the soul leaves your body, are you conscious? Will you be conscious?

Devotee: Unless one becomes self-realized, he is not conscious.

Gour Govinda Swami: No, when the soul leaves your body, will you be conscious? No. Because the conscious thing has left. Has already deserted your body. You are material elements only, unconscious.

Now you are speaking, now you are moving, going from one place to another, now you are responding, isn't it? But at that time you cannot respond — oh Nṛhari, Nṛhari! No response. Hands are not moving, legs are not moving — as good as this matter (taps table), this unconscious thing, non-living thing. Do you follow me?

Now you can go wherever you want. In other words, we say, you have independence. You have independence. You may go wherever you like. You may do whatever you like. You may raise your hand as you like. You may move your leg as you like. This is known as independence. You have independence, but this thing (again taps table) has no independence. This is the difference between living and non-living being. This independence is the only thing. You have independence, but this thing has no independence. It cannot go from this place to that place on its own accord. We have to lift it, carry it and take it there. It cannot go, but you can go. This is the difference, this is independence — svatantrya. In Sanskrit it is said — svatantrya.

And Kṛṣṇa, out of His causeless mercy, has granted you this thing — svatantrya. jīvanam... (again quotes above verse,...?...28.34). Vyasa-sūtra says this thing.

Do you follow what is the meaning? teṣām (...?...28.48)....kāruṇyā means by, out of causeless mercy, īśvara means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He has given this independence. (quotes...?...29.08). You should know all these things. How the Supreme Personality of Godhead is so kind, so merciful that He has granted this independence to me! To all living entities.

So, what is your duty? When He has granted independence to us, minute, though it is minute. He is supremely independent, we are minutely independent.
(conch blowing, inaudible, 30.00) kāruṇayā tadvam...parameśvaram viṣṇu...?... But you are so foolish! Who is so merciful to you, who has granted this independence to you — you have forgotten Him. You are not attracted towards Him. You are attracted to material objects. That sūtra says: (repeats). That you can do. You may remember Kṛṣṇa, you may be attracted towards Kṛṣṇa or may not be attracted to Kṛṣṇa. Reject Him and be attracted towards material objects. This is by dint of your independence. Because I am independent. I may go there or I may not go there, I may go elsewhere. This is independence.

When you are not attracted towards Kṛṣṇa, not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. When you are not doing Kṛṣṇa-bhajana. When you are not surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa — thereby you are abusing your independence, isn't it? You are abusing.
There are two uses — proper use and abuse. What is the proper use of your independence? What is the proper use?

Devotee: To know Kṛṣṇa is the supremely...

Gour Govinda Swami: Proper use is to surrender yourself at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is proper use. Abuse means not to surrender. I can do whatever I like! Why shall I go to Kṛṣṇa? Why shall I surrender? I am master! This is abuse.
And where there is abuse, you will be put into miserable condition, you get misery. Then Kṛṣṇa punishes you — take this punishment because you have abused your independence. That is jīva-kleśa, kleśa means misery, pain, distress. Now you are attracted to some material objects instead of being attracted to Kṛṣṇa.

Why did Kṛṣṇa give us such independence, therefore we will defy it? And it is said kāruṇayā — out of mercy He has granted you this independence! What sort of mercy it is? One cannot understand. Yes, this is mercy, otherwise you cannot be entitled as jīva, conscious thing, you will be as dead thing or unconscious thing as this matter.

What is the difference between a dead matter, unconscious matter and conscious matter and jīva and nir-jīva? One has no independence, one has independence. This is the difference.

Devotee: Pātita-pāvana Śrīla Gurudeva ki jaya! I speak in English, not Oriya. So they are disappointed. Those who don't understand English. Murali can (laughs), no time. What to do? This is very high philosophy. Enough to say. No, expert, you are right. You need training (laughs).

Devotee: Only by your causeless mercy, Gurudeva.