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860724 - Darshan - Questions and Answers - France

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami: When you approach a woman, the instruction is also, "Don’t stay with a woman alone." Don’t stay with your mother, sister, or daughter. Indriyas (senses) are so powerful that they can even attract a learned person, a Muni, like Viśvāmitra Muni. You see, this is dangerous. This instruction is: go there, but don’t stay longer. Finish your business as soon as possible. You may find a woman there, but alright, stay, do whatever you have to do, but don’t look at the face of a woman. Don’t look at the face of a woman. Just take very little time and go. This is the instruction. Yes, what do you say?

Devotee: We don’t need to go to the house of a woman.

Gour Govinda Swami: All naked women are there.

Devotee: We say naked women... they act on the street everywhere. Very little dress.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, I see. It’s a very dangerous place. You have to be very, very careful.

Devotee: We want to go to the beach and women are half-naked.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, so why will you go there? There is danger. Why will you go there? That’s the thing—no, danger is there.

Devotee: Maharaj, can I ask you what is your general impression of the film that you have seen?

Gour Govinda Swami: It is not goodness.

Devotee: Can it be justified by preaching a purpose?

Gour Govinda Swami: What preaching? What will you preach? What did the lady speak?

Devotee: Explains something about some “preaching” film.

Gour Govinda Swami: This is not Mahāprabhu's way. It’s bogus.

Devotee: In the West, we have to take some risks for Kṛṣṇa. Is a risk alright?

Gour Govinda Swami: Kṛṣṇa knows why you have taken such a risk. Strī is like a fire pot and purusha is like a ghee pot. When they come together...?

Devotee: Melting.

Gour Govinda Swami: Who? What is this risk? Why take this risk? Take the case of Viśvāmitra Muni. He underwent severe penance and austerity for 60,000 years and achieved very...

Gour Govinda Swami: High, very wonderful siddhis, yoga siddhis, still, what happened to him? You see? Why would you use a lady?

Devotee: Because in the West, we say people are attached to ladies, so when the ladies take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the men will follow.

Gour Govinda Swami: In London, accepting ladies, what will they find? In a natural way, the same thing will come out. Just a few will come. It’s not time. Spiritualism is another form of māyā. In the name of spiritualism, you are accepting māyā, the trick of māyā. You are cheating people. That is cheating—“We are earning money for Kṛṣṇa, but utilizing it for your own sense gratification”—no, you are utilizing this for your own pleasure. Taking to a lady, getting pleasure, you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa. Is Kṛṣṇa prema? Nonsense. This is not Mahāprabhu's way. Mahāprabhu has shared practically—how merciful, how compassionate Mahāprabhu is. I must go; I will practice myself bhakti yoga, otherwise, it cannot be taught. Did Mahāprabhu do like this? Did He do like this to become Bhagavān? This is all cheating business. Hypocrisy. Don’t practice hypocrisy. Kṛṣṇa says hypocrisy—he is a hypocrite, a pretender. Yes.

Devotee: There is a risk that māyā penetrates the mind, “Oh, I have to preach to this lady.” Is it a good attitude to preach? Should we preach to a lady alone, or should we not preach?

Gour Govinda Swami: In the congregation, not alone, no, no, no, in the congregation.

Devotee: Say, please come, there is a program.

Gour Govinda Swami: This is not Mahāprabhu's way. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura also said this—this is forbidden, an offense. It comes under offense, aparādha. Yes, nāma-aparādha, that’s not the instruction.

Devotee: Gurudev, how do you see, if someone wants to make the movement famous, and he wants to make himself famous?

Gour Govinda Swami: Himself famous? That is pratistha.

Devotee: How can you see, how can you know if he wants to make Kṛṣṇa famous and himself famous? How can you tell?

Gour Govinda Swami: Kṛṣṇa is always famous. Kṛṣṇa is always famous. How will you make Him famous? To establish the greatness of Kṛṣṇa means, you just say what Kṛṣṇa has said, just act as Kṛṣṇa has instructed to act, and Mahāprabhu has acted. Why are you doing other things, other than that?

Devotee: According to time, place, and circumstance.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, but the instruction is the same. For example, my guru-mahārāja came to the West. He came to the West, he stayed in some gentleman’s house when they were drinking wine, eating beef, all these things. Still, someone instructed him, "You have come here. You should put on this dress, put it on, and dine with them." Did he accept it? No.

Gour Govinda Swami: Have come to teach them, not accept their ways. You see. Time, place, and circumstances.

Devotee: Gṛhasthas have permission.

Gour Govinda Swami: Gṛhastha has his family, and his family belongs to Kṛṣṇa, not my family. You can never say this thing—that is nāma-aparādha also. Don’t you know it? You follow. It belongs to Kṛṣṇa. This family belongs to Kṛṣṇa. I am the servant of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa-dāsa. The wife is Kṛṣṇa-dāsī, is it not? The children all belong to Kṛṣṇa. It is Kṛṣṇa's family. I am the caretaker of the family. I am the caretaker of the family. You will earn money to take care of Kṛṣṇa's family. I will earn money to take care of your family, understand?

Therefore, a gṛhastha will earn money, not a sannyāsī, nor a brahmacārī. A gṛhastha will earn money to take care of Kṛṣṇa's family. Your saṃsāra, Kṛṣṇa's, not my saṃsāra. I will shoulder the burden of your family, Kṛṣṇa's family, therefore I earn money. Do you understand? The money will be utilized for the service of Kṛṣṇa.

Give pleasure to Kṛṣṇa. You should serve Mādhava through money, gold, money. You should not utilize it for your own pleasure, enjoying it. Utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa. Then, the act of this remnants—leftover, that is for you, prasāda, take prasāda. Then there will be no sinful reaction.

This is Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā: yukta-vairāgya. Gṛhastha must be yukta-vairāgī. You should not be attached—only attachment to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, no other attachment. No attachment to wife, family, children, wealth, gṛha, house, relatives—no attachment. Mahāprabhu's instructions. In the heart, you are only attached to Kṛṣṇa. Outwardly, you are acting, apparently attached. Apparently, you are attached to your wife and children, but not inwardly.

Devotee: It is better than the opposite, outwardly attached but inwardly detached.

Gour Govinda Swami: (Laughter) Yes! Kṛṣṇa knows.

Devotee: Gurudev, you said one should not be attached to the family, but one gets a family because he is attached. One gets married because he is attached.

Gour Govinda Swami: That is for a mundane man.

Devotee: Otherwise, he wouldn’t be...

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, that is for a mundane man, a worldly person. That’s not for a Vaiṣṇava sādhu. That’s not for a Vaiṣṇava sādhu. Sādhudūṣamsāra, sādhu saṃsāra, Vaiṣṇava saṃsāra—it’s not like that.

Devotee: Well, for instance, when we get married, it’s because we have been brahmacārīs for many years, but we are not able to completely avoid woman association, so we get married. But there is...

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, it’s better to be married.

Devotee: The same attachment is there, otherwise, you wouldn’t get married.

Gour Govinda Swami: Quotes, we engage our senses, isn’t it? According to the will of Kṛṣṇa, quotes, control sense activity, do you understand? Quotes, controller Hṛṣīkeśa, He controls the senses of the devotee; therefore, His name is Hṛṣīkeśa. He never controls the senses of non-devotees. The senses of non-devotees are controlled by māyā. They are under the control of māyā. Devotees are under the control of Hṛṣīkeśa, the internal potency, quotes.

So all of your senses will be engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa. I must see the beautiful form of Kṛṣṇa, hear Kṛṣṇa-kathā, my tongue must taste Kṛṣṇa prasāda, and taste the sound vibration, chanting, Hari-kathā, circumambulate the dham and mandir, all these things, everything. Then controlled: genital, nose, smell tulsi. How to utilize the genital? You accept a wife under the permission of the guru.

The guru says, “Now you accept a wife, you become gṛhastha.” The guru knows your tendency, so he says, “You accept a wife, you become gṛhastha.” So I became gṛhastha, I accepted a wife, and then utilized the genital. Why? For the pleasure of Kṛṣṇa, quotes—understand? I will engage my senses according to Your will, for Your pleasure. How to utilize the genital? For procreating Kṛṣṇa-bhakta-conscious children to give to society. They will be no disturbance to the society. Kṛṣṇa's work will go on, bhaktas will come.

Only for this purpose, not for our own enjoyment. I accept a wife to procreate progeny—Kṛṣṇa-conscious children to procreate, not for my own enjoyment, sexual pleasure, no. That is Vaiṣṇava saṃsāra. The gṛhastha who accepts a wife, he is a greater sādhu. Quotes, woman is a fire pot and man is a ghee pot. Isn’t it? You are entering into the fire—coming in contact with the fire. If you come in contact with fire, you must be burnt. But if you will be fireproof, then you will not be burned. So become fireproof—then enter, then you are safe. (Laughs)

Devotee: Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī had said if there will be a lack of Kṛṣṇa-conscious children...

Gour Govinda Swami: Although strict brahmacārī, I will marry and produce children if it’s required. Therefore, gṛhasthas are there. They are meant for Kṛṣṇa's saṃsāra. Do you understand? Yes.

Devotee: Just previously, you were saying about yukta-vairāgya. Can you say that yukta-vairāgya is especially meant for the gṛhasthas? In real traditional vairāgya, it is for sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yukta-vairāgya means for gṛhasthas, yes.

Devotee: Not for sannyāsīs?

Gour Govinda Swami: No, apparently when a sannyāsī comes to this material world, according to time, place, and circumstance, this should be maintained. Otherwise, people won’t listen to him—"Oh, a beggar has come, we won’t go there." So he may put on some nice dress and let people come, and then speak to them about Lord Kṛṣṇa, but he is not attached. Everywhere he resides in a very palatial building, and at the same time, he can reside under a tree without a lamp. I was telling my guru-mahārāja stayed in that hut in Bhubaneswar, nothing was there. No facilities, amenities, nothing—very austere. No urinal, latrine, bathroom, nothing, you see?

I arranged a guest house, a state guest house. He said, "No, I will stay here only. I require this electricity for the dictaphone, nothing else." So he was residing here in so much opulence, a palatial building, so much comfort, but he could reside there without anything, and stayed there for 16 days! All were surprised! Prabhupāda Gour Govinda Swami: Stayed continuously 16 days here?! Nothing, no facilities, amenities, nothing. He never stays anywhere for 16 days—at least one very most one of the days. But he has erected and stayed there.

Devotee: When a young sannyāsī is performing yukta-vairāgya, there may be some doubt in people's minds.

Gour Govinda Swami: People may doubt, but if you are pure, Kṛṣṇa knows. People may doubt, but what is that?

Devotee: To teach, he will be very strict and not show any opulence.

Gour Govinda Swami: Minimum requirement. Vidhi means you strictly follow these regulations. Sādhanā-vidhi principles, by your ________ action you will teach. Obscure himself, practice himself, or how will you expect others to practice? We may put on nice clothes, washed, not dirty ones, unless costly I won’t put on. What is that? Very simple. Clean, śuci, take bath 2 times, 3 times—take bath, put on washed clothes.

Jayantand: Sometimes people say if someone is wearing silk, then to get the silk you have to kill so many worms, silkworms. So sometimes people say like that. "Oh, you are wearing silk, silk means to get the silk you have to kill all the worms and insects."

Gour Govinda Swami: We are not manufacturing those clothes. We purchase them for the service of Kṛṣṇa, we are not manufacturing.

Jayantakṛd: But silk is puṇya.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, silk cloth, cotton cloth. If someone gives silk cloth, someone has given it as an act of love, we accept it, yes. You see, that is meant for decorating deities with silk cloth, for the deities, you decorate, put on the deities.

Jayantakṛd: So it’s Vedic.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, Vedic.

Jayantakṛd: Just as śāstra says cow dung is pure, śaṅka is pure, silk is pure. Is it like that?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes; strictness means we never put on all these things, we are not hankering after it, no. Minimum clothing, we are not hankering, we are not demanding for it. As, for example, disciples present something, so it’s a reciprocation of love, prīti, he accepts, prīti-lakṣaṇa, quotes, prīti-lakṣaṇa. This prīti-lakṣaṇa, he gives something, in return, I give something. Prīti-lakṣaṇa, so the spiritual master accepts it. Prīti-lakṣaṇa, it’s a symptom of love, but he is not attached, he never demands. If he demands, then that’s, he never demands.

Devotee: If the guru is demanding to train the disciples...

Gour Govinda Swami: No, no, no, no, what is that! Train the disciples?

Devotee: If the guru is making the design for his own āsana, "I want an āsana like this."

Gour Govinda Swami: No, oh no.

Devotee: And you must get it.

Gour Govinda Swami: That means he wants to enjoy. He never means he wants to enjoy; he never wants to give to Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: It is guru-sevā, to train disciples how to serve.

Gour Govinda Swami: Guru-sevā, if I sit on this āsana, it is sevā. This is not sevā, it is pure love, pure love. How far you are carrying the orders of guru, that is sevā. The guru never demands all these things.

Devotee: We have been cheated. You have no love for the guru, you don’t know how to honour the guru, therefore you must...

Gour Govinda Swami: Honour means to pay daṇḍavat. When guru comes, wash his feet.

Devotee: You must give him a big, big seat.

Gour Govinda Swami: Whatever I have, the best I have. If I am a poor man, I have a straw mat, I will give him a straw mat, just spread a piece of cloth. Pay daṇḍavats. "Please excuse me, I cannot do proper service to you because I am a poor man. What is best, I will do it, and you please accept it, with humility, much humility." This is the heart’s thing; this is not outward. You see, everything should be applied for the pleasure of guru. Yasya prasādād etc. If guru is pleased, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased and you will get Kṛṣṇa's mercy.

Ramānuja-cārya, once came to a place with some of his disciples while preaching. In that village, he had wealthy disciples and poor disciples also. So he sent one of his disciples to his wealthy gṛhastha, "Just tell me, so-and-so, that I have come, he should make arrangements for us, make prasāda." So the disciple went. He was a very wealthy person, though they are wealthy, they have some sort of pride. It’s quite natural, it’s quite natural, it’s not unnatural. And he said, "Alright, I will prepare nice food for my guru and my godbrothers." So he went inside to make arrangements,

"Alright, the cooks, cook like this, 1, 2 hours." And two disciples were standing outside the doorstep. He did not tell them, "Please take your seat, I am taking care of you." He never said, he never said like that. Only went inside and they stood for 2 hours. "Who is this man? He went inside, not telling anything, and he is not coming back." So they left the place and told Ramānuja-cārya this is the attitude. "Alright, don’t go there." And then Ramānuja-cārya himself came to the door of his poor disciple.

They were husband and wife, Brahmins, a Brahmin family, husband and wife, no other person was there. They were very, very poor. The Brahmin was a beggar, who begs, and his wife looked very beautiful. Her name was Lakṣmī, do you understand? Her name was Lakṣmī. The beautiful young wife was so poor, she couldn’t put on a sāri to cover up her body, so poor, do you understand? A wealthy person, another wealthy person was there in that village who tried his best to attract that lady, taking advantage of their poverty.

Do you understand? Giving them some money, sending people...

Oh Lakṣmī, you come to me, why are you suffering? I will give you money, why are you suffering, just... Lakṣmī didn’t listen to it, many times he attempted. Rāmānuja-cārya came to their door. Her husband was out begging. Lakṣmī was inside but she couldn’t come out to pay obeisances because she had no sāri to put on; her body was almost naked, only putting on very torn cloth. She couldn’t. Rāmānuja-cārya knew it. Rāmānuja-cārya said, "We have come, so many of us, will you please take care of it?" "Yes, Gurudeva, that is the disciple's duty. Yes, Gurudeva has come, many disciples have come, so we shall do our duty to take care of them, make arrangements for their prasāda, etc." Then they went and said, "We are staying there at such-and-such place, please come."

Then she thought of what to do. They had nothing in their house, not a grain of rice. You see, her husband was out begging, and she thought, "What to do? How can I serve my guru?" She thought, "Oh! I must approach that wealthy person who was trying to entrap me. I must go to him now. He wants my body, for this cause I will serve my guru." She went. That person was very much astonished. "Oh, Lakṣmī, how came you? I attempted, I tried, so many times." She didn’t come; now she came. "What happened to you?" "My Gurudeva has come, so such-and-such things are required, so I came to you." "Alright, now I come to you, so whatever you like, you may do to me, but I want this thing." Do you see? Do you follow? What are the inner feelings?

Kṛṣṇa knows that thing. Kṛṣṇa is the Supersoul. She’s so eager to serve her guru, therefore the cost of giving her body for his enjoyment... Isn’t it? So that person’s heart changed, "Oh, she is really Lakṣmī, she is really Lakṣmī—what sort of devotion she has towards guru—really, what a sinful man I am. Such nasty desire in me. She is really Lakṣmī." He fell flat at her feet and said, "Excuse me, please excuse me, I am such a nasty person, I am so nasty, I have desire in me, but you are the real Lakṣmī. If you shower mercy on me, will you please be merciful on me, to take me to your guru and let me touch his feet, let me be purified. Let me take shelter."

You see? His heart changed. He made nice preparations. They were very happy. The guru asked, "How could you do all these things, Lakṣmī? There is nothing in your house?" Then she narrated all these things. "Yes, that’s the guru-sevā. That’s guru-sevā. Do you understand?" You see, did the guru demand something? No, that’s the duty to serve your guru. That’s alright. Whatever you have, the best you can do for your guru. If you do like this, otherwise, I won’t accept, what is that? (laughs)

Devotee: This professor came, he was very impressed. We did not have a big castle or anything, but he was very impressed.

Jayantakr: We took him to your basement room.

Devotee: Took him downstairs—I came out to fetch a book. When I came back, he was sitting on the floor. So they like simplicity.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.

Jayantakr: None of us were attracted to Prabhupāda because he had an opulent setting. We were attracted because he was so pure and simple.

Gour Govinda Swami: Only purity of heart is required. Kṛṣṇa knows the heart. Kṛṣṇa never looks at your outward activity; what is inside your heart, that is acceptable.

Devotee: This bhakta, Professor bhakta Paul, he is probably our best contact in France. And I am glad, I could present him to you because I feel that if I would have taken him to the castle he would not have liked.

Gour Govinda Swami: He is here to help, he said, "I am here to help print books. I like books on devotion. He is a famous writer." I said, "Alright, you read the Bhagavad-gītā, you write on Kṛṣṇa, you write on Mahāprabhu, Caitanya Mahāprabhu." "Yes, I will do."

Devotee: We were discussing that Kṛṣṇa was saving him. He did not come before, he came only now and got a really good idea of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not some false idea. He came into a little house—not in a big castle. He came to see a sādhu—not an __________. He fully agreed with us on preaching in a simple way, now with monasteries and harināma. He agreed. He said all his friends, whatever connections he has, they all criticize us for a big castle. He said, "If you have monasteries, nobody would dare to say one thing, nobody would criticize." He fully agreed with us. He said, "It’s obvious. It’s so obvious."

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is pleased; all will be pleased because the source of everything is Kṛṣṇa. Pour water on the root of the tree—if Kṛṣṇa is pleased, everybody will be pleased. You cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa. In the name of Kṛṣṇa, you are presenting yourself—pratiṣṭhā.

Devotee: When we collect Lakṣmī, there is a story in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So Raghunātha Gosvāmī, he was having money from his parents, and he was serving Caitanya Mahāprabhu, offering prasāda. I think it was also much Lakṣmī for festivals. But at one point, he understood that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not very pleased that he would use this money coming from envious people. So he stopped.

Gour Govinda Swami: (quotes) And Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī, also afterwards, he didn’t accept it. "No, I won’t accept it." Mahāprabhu didn’t say anything out of love. Mahāprabhu accepted his bhikṣā, but he was not happy inside—inwardly. But Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī could understand this, so later on, he refused that money. He didn’t accept it. Then Mahāprabhu asked, "Why is he doing like that? Why is he not giving?" He says, "No, that’s the karma-īśa money." (Karma Dharma quotes) Mahāprabhu said, "Yes, that’s right."

Devotee: It would have been yukta-vairāgya, so he did. If he had accepted, he could have said, "This is yukta-vairāgya, we are using."

Gour Govinda Swami: Why didn’t he accept it? It never gave pleasure to Mahāprabhu. Mahāprabhu is not pleased. Mahāprabhu accepted it out of love, but he was not pleased inside. He could know it. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī could know it. He didn’t accept it. Mahāprabhu didn’t need it, you see. Mahāprabhu didn’t need it. Such type of dīkṣā, he didn’t need it. We accept money for Mahāprabhu and Kṛṣṇa. If he doesn’t need it, we will not accept such money. (laughs)

Brahmacārī will do, putting on saffron dress. Therefore we have Brahmacārīs, we have gṛhasthas, we have vanaprasthas, we have sannyāsīs in varṇāśrama-dharma. We are introducing varṇāśrama-dharma.

Devotee: So Brahmā can be told—not a businessman.

Gour Govinda Swami: Not a businessman.

Devotee: And gṛhastha should not be a beggar, but he should...

Gour Govinda Swami: No, he should not be a beggar. Gṛhastha should not be a beggar.

Devotee: The devotees have a restaurant run by brahmacārīs.

Gour Govinda Swami: Restaurant means they are selling Kṛṣṇa prasāda, giving Kṛṣṇa prasāda, and getting some money. For example, in our Jagannātha temple, Mahāprasāda is being sold. Yes, they are doing the same thing, they are selling Mahāprasāda. It is better to be run by gṛhasthas, not by brahmacārīs.

Brahmacārī's business is to preach and lead a very strict life, a very strict brahmacārī life, strict life. Collect donations, dīkṣā, you should go out and collect in the morning, return in the evening. Selling, book selling means preaching; that’s not business, that’s preaching. Our books, we give the book, we get donations.

Therefore, in our books, we never print the price of the book as such and such. Prabhupāda has never done it. Nowadays we are doing like that, but Prabhupāda has not done it. Because we are getting some donations towards this purpose—printing more books. Otherwise, we will have to pay taxes to the government. Isn’t it? Because you are a book seller, we do not pay taxes because we are not selling. We are getting donations. We give him this presentation, this book. "Please, thank you very much for your donation, so I give you this presentation on Kṛṣṇa kathā, and you read it."

Devotee: In the West, sometimes people like that things have a price.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.

Devotee: It makes it more, everything has a price.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, therefore nowadays sometimes the price is printed, but Prabhupāda didn’t do it. Otherwise, the government will take taxes.

Devotee: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is saying, "As long as one has material desires, they should remain within the confines of varṇāśrama-dharma." Now it so happens that devotees, in the course of time, they may be, for instance, single, but not really behaving in brahmacārī standard. Or someone, for example, has lost his wife, then they are in between. He wants to marry, but then he doesn’t want to marry.

Gour Govinda Swami: No, he wishes to marry, means he will be a gṛhastha. As, for example, he has not married, but he should be respected as a gṛhastha because he is in a family and he wishes to marry. He is earning money and doing gṛhastha duties, as a gṛhastha does. You are not accepted wife, but you accept a wife. Otherwise, how will you do these things? Isn’t it?

Devotee: Sometimes devotees don’t really define themselves. "Okay, I am a brahmacārī, I am a gṛhastha," like in between.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, interim period, he/she has some desire—either you will go this side or that side (laughs). You have to act accordingly.

Devotee: But for some people, the interim period lasts for many years. They are single but not really brahmacārīs.

Gour Govinda Swami: Must be one side—don’t be in between, that’s not a good thing. Quotes—those who are ignorant fools, but they are simple, they accept, they will get happiness, not desires. What is the heart? They accept Kṛṣṇa, they know Kṛṣṇa tattva, they accept Kṛṣṇa, fully surrendered. They are in the interim, not fools. They are not fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they know something about Kṛṣṇa, but they are not fully surrendered, and they are not fools. They are in between. One hand on māyā, one hand on Kṛṣṇa, they will be put into the interim. They will be put into that state.

Devotee: One foot on the boat of prema, one foot on the boat of karma.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, quotes. Be on one side. Either you accept māyā or you accept Kṛṣṇa. Be on one side—why the interim?

Devotee: Some say that you can take to spiritual life only when you are really disgusted.

Gour Govinda Swami: Spiritual life is the real way of life – ātma-buddhi – sad- souls' business—quotes.

Devotee: He refers to Prabhupāda, who was saying one has to be materially exhausted with material activity, frustrated. He has enjoyed so much, and he is not finding any more enjoyment. Is it necessary to come to the end of material life, completely frustrated, to take to spiritual life?

Gour Govinda Swami: You see, one thing is there. With this purpose, you should not go. "Let me go, let me bear the lashes, let me be frustrated, then I will come." With this purpose, this mentality, you should not go. Why? He is an ignorant fool, he doesn’t know anything, he remains attached. So he got the lashes from māyā, he became frustrated, so he must turn his face. That māyā is doing a good job. Māyā is doing a thankless job because māyā is Kṛṣṇa's dāsi. Māyā never forsakes you until you have turned your face towards Kṛṣṇa. She gives you more sense lashes, sense lashing, thereby you will turn your face towards Kṛṣṇa, from your face towards Kṛṣṇa—turn your face towards Kṛṣṇa (laughing).

Devotee: Someone more intelligent doesn’t need to become more frustrated because he just takes to Kṛṣṇa. They don’t have to go to māyā to be frustrated. As soon as they hear from Kṛṣṇa, they take to Kṛṣṇa.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, you are interested in Kṛṣṇa, hear Kṛṣṇa, and serve Kṛṣṇa. Serve Kṛṣṇa under the guidance and direction of a bona fide guru to please Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: But you have to be intelligent.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence.

Devotee: If someone is less intelligent, he has to suffer until he is frustrated, then all the frustration will come out.

Gour Govinda Swami: That māyā will do automatically, why you will do? Māyā will do it automatically, māyā will give you lashes. Māyā's business. But an intelligent person knows—why shall I get the lashes of māyā? That is an intelligent person—why should I get the lashes of māyā and suffer? Oh, I must take shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and serve.

Devotee: Doesn’t it depend on the past life already?

Gour Govinda Swami: Previous karma, but as soon as you quotes—previous actions will compel you, but the reactions will come, all will be finished as soon as you take complete shelter, surrender to Kṛṣṇa—seva-dharma etc. Quotes. Come to the bath of bhakti, surrender fully, then your karma is finished—no more.

Devotee: The gṛhasthas should not beg, but what in the case of brāhmaṇas, for instance, in the story that you narrated about Rāmānujācārya?

Gour Govinda Swami: Brāhmaṇas, that is the Vedic system—brāhmaṇas don’t do business. Brāhmaṇas' work is Vedic study, understand? Brāhmaṇas' business, they will do Vedic study, and they will also teach. Brāhmaṇas will teach—do you understand? So they will be supported by the king, the ruler, whatever is necessary. The ruler, the king will provide them with a house, food, money, everything. That’s Vedic culture, that is the custom. So they never do business. Business means vaiśya karma. Quotes—vaiśya's business, brāhmaṇas' business. He was a brāhmaṇa, so he was in a brāhmaṇa family.

Devotee: If I am an aspiring gṛhastha-brāhmaṇa, can I accept protection from the king?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, when the king is not protecting, nowadays, there is no king, and the government is not doing so. As a gṛhastha, you will earn money.

Devotee: Can I accept protection from another gṛhastha who is more vaiśya—he can make money and he gives protection to a brāhmaṇa?

Gour Govinda Swami: He can do, if he is like a king (laughs). Nowadays, this system doesn’t work, it’s an unseen thing. In Kali-yuga, it is all not working.

Devotee: The brāhmaṇa gṛhastha, he cannot approach the karmīs and ask for donations.

Gour Govinda Swami: No, no, no, no, no, in Kali-yuga, that’s not working—nobody. Brāhmaṇa-gṛhastha means if you are a real brāhmaṇa, do brāhmaṇa's work, take to the teaching profession. The teaching profession is for brāhmaṇas.

Devotee: So I am a brāhmaṇa-gṛhastha, I am giving lessons, but still, people are not giving me any money, so I must tell them, "You must give me."

Gour Govinda Swami: Give something to the teacher, yes. That’s the teaching profession—his profession is teaching. Students must give, ____ their teacher. They will give some money, food, and clothing, in any case—class or kind, anyway.

Devotee: Varṇāśrama-dharma is not working, but Śrīla Prabhupāda, again before his departure, made us work. "You must now establish Varṇāśrama-dharma."

Gour Govinda Swami: In Kali-yuga, we are training people, trying to establish this. Unless it is established, our society will be finished. A healthy society is based on Varṇāśrama-dharma. Therefore, we are maintaining brahmacārī, gṛhastha, etc., and we are training people—who will be vaiśya, kṣatriya.

Devotee: Mahāprabhu did not teach.

Gour Govinda Swami: Mahāprabhu is the highest thing, the highest thing. Varṇāśrama-dharma is the beginning stage for conditioned souls. The Gītā teaches that thing; in the Gītā, it is taught. But what is the last conclusion? Sarva-dharma-pārittyaja etc. Quotes. That is the last conclusion of the Gītā: "Give up this dharma, give up these distortions of religion," which includes Varṇāśrama-dharma in the beginning part of the Gītā. But the last thing is, only surrender unto Me—complete surrender quotes. That is the love of Godhead, this Kṛṣṇa-prema. Who can give up everything unless he has developed prema, love?

Devotee: In our Vaiṣṇava society, we practice more or less the āśrama—gṛhastha, sannyāsī, but in the varṇas, it is not very dear, because nobody wants to be a śūdra. Everybody wants to be a brāhmaṇa, so...

Gour Govinda Swami: No, when you develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all work rendered for Kṛṣṇa is equal. It may be śūdra work, vaiśya, kṣatriya, or brāhmaṇa; that is for Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti, that’s transcendental if it is done for Kṛṣṇa. Nobody wants to be a śūdra, that’s alright, but if it is required, a devotee does what is required. A devotee does what is required at the present moment. If it is required to clean the house, you cannot say, "No, I am a brāhmaṇa, this is śūdra's work, why should I do it?" Well, it is Kṛṣṇa's temple, it is required, so I will do it. As, for example, you see Paraśurāma, he was a brāhmaṇa, but he did the work of a kṣatriya. That was the requirement. We are Vaiṣṇavas, we are devotees of Kṛṣṇa. We do any work that is needed for the pleasure of Kṛṣṇa, under the direction of the guru. Acting indifferently is not so prototypical.

Devotee: Nowadays, there are many devotees who have, to some extent, some brāhminical tendencies, but, for instance, they have to do the same business, act as vaiśya. So does this mean they should be considered as vaiśya? Should we understand that, because of the circumstances, they are not being given protection from the king, they must also start?

Gour Govinda Swami: Then do that thing under the direction of the guru, for the service of Kṛṣṇa. These are unto so-called vaiśyas. They are vaiśyas. A Vaiṣṇava can do anything that is required for the service of Kṛṣṇa, the pleasure of Kṛṣṇa, apparently doing the work of a vaiśya, but he is doing it, serving Kṛṣṇa. We should not think like that, and a Vaiṣṇava never thinks all these things. He doesn’t care; it’s the service of Kṛṣṇa. Quotes "I don’t know whether I am doing good or bad, I don’t know." "Oh, I don’t know whether I am doing good or bad, I am only serving you." Apparently, it may be good or bad, but I am only serving you, quotes. "I don’t know, I am only serving you under the direction, guidance of my Gurudeva." This is the attitude: for your pleasure only, this attitude, this consciousness.

Devotee: We are editing a newspaper. I want to ask you one question: What is your impression about preaching in Europe and predictions for the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, bhakti in the West?

Gour Govinda Swami: It will spread. It is spreading now, yes.

Devotee: More than in India?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, more than in India. It will spread more than in India, yes. Caitanya's movement, not other religions, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's Vaiṣṇavism. It will spread more in Western countries than in India, yes. This prediction is there.

Devotee: Last year in France was the Year of India. They played the Mahābhārata all over India and held a festival with Mahāprabhūta.

Gour Govinda Swami: So, spreading—definitely, definitely. He has problems, you have problems. This is our Vaiṣṇava teaching. Do you follow now? He was just telling his problem; everybody has problems. No matter, that’s not your case only; everybody, everybody. It’s quite natural for conditioned souls; we have the weakness. Laughs Yes, pratiṣṭhā means material name and fame, to establish yourself in this material world. Pratiṣṭhā, is it too late? Shall I say?

Devotee: No.

Gour Govinda Swami: Quotes Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings like that: Quotes "Who is a real Vaiṣṇava? He is the one who has given up these three: kanaka, kāmini, and pratiṣṭhā." It’s like a tigress; she will devour you if you run after this pratiṣṭhā, becoming Vaiṣṇava, if you run after this pratiṣṭhā for name and fame, doing everything in the name of Madhava, Madhava-sevā. It is very subtle. Then you will be captured by Kali. Then you will find so many enemies are there.

Pratiṣṭhā, all are very, very eager to establish themselves in the material world. Nobody wants to be belittled. The desire for pratiṣṭhā is so great in human beings that they forget everything; they become mad. They spend all their money, all their wealth, for the establishment of this pratiṣṭhā. Even they will not hesitate to spare their beloved wife quotes for the sake of pratiṣṭhā. We see this in the material world, but how long will it last? How long will it last?

Everything is ādhyānta-vārdita in this world, temporary. So this pratiṣṭhā, how long will it last? For a temporary period in history, we will find, if you just turn over the pages of history, you will find so many heroes, kings, emperors, so many persons running after pratiṣṭhā, trying to establish themselves as great. What happened to them in the long run?

Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has written in one song: Quotes "If you turn over the pages of history, you will find so many—Napoleon, Alexander the Great, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Rāvaṇa, Kaṁsa—they are all after pratiṣṭhā. Quotes At last they die. Quotes At the time of death, they find no other way, no means to survive. Quotes At that time, they spent, 'Oh, what have we done?' They spent their life like animals, beasts, like hogs, dogs.

They never thought of this Kṛṣṇa-bhakti, this is the real wealth. They have never thought of this thing. When one tries to establish himself in this material world, to be great, through this pratiṣṭhā, you will find so many enemies. There are so many enemies. Therefore, there is no real pleasure in it, no real happiness in it. You are always put into anxiety. You will be in a fearful condition every moment, one who runs after this pratiṣṭhā. Therefore, the Vaiṣṇavas say, the mahājanas say: Quotes and we

Also see, in this age of Kali that some Vaiṣṇavas also try to get pratiṣṭhā. A Vaiṣṇava should be akincana. A Vaiṣṇava is very dear. A real Vaiṣṇava, a true devotee, a dear devotee of the Lord is very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives him everything. Kṛṣṇa gives him everything as in the last verse of the Bhagavad-gītā. Sañjaya said quotes: "When there is Kṛṣṇa, when there is a dear devotee like Pārtha, like Arjuna, there is everything." Kṛṣṇa means everything. Quotes – six times of opulences are there in Kṛṣṇa, Lakṣmī will come. If you are really anxious to serve Kṛṣṇa, with no other desire, no dhanam, no janam, Mahāprabhu's teachings state that you are without desire. Lakṣmī comes and you utilize it for the service of Madhava.

Kṛṣṇa knows what is inside in your heart. Kṛṣṇa never takes your outward activity—Super Soul sitting in everyone's heart. He knows what is inside, your feelings. Quotes: "I don’t want pratiṣṭhā, no dhanam, I don’t want, don’t glorify me, don’t utter my name, all your auspiciousness will go." Kavirāja Gosvāmī, a real Vaiṣṇava, never wants this. Quotes: "I am the lowest of the low, I am less than a worm in the stool." Quotes: "I am more sinful than Jagāi and Mādhāi, more sinful, don’t utter my name."

This should be the attitude, the inner feeling. If he is a real Vaiṣṇava, he never runs after pratiṣṭhā, never tries to establish himself as great, Vaiṣṇava, sādhu, guru, Mahānta—no, that’s not Vaiṣṇavism, true Vaiṣṇavism. Then you will be captured by Kali, and you will be encircled by so many enemies. You will always be in anxiety, always in a fearful state. That’s Vaiṣṇava pratistha, the stool of a hog, female hog, an abominable thing. One should be very, very careful. This pratiṣṭhā will never give you peace, never give you happiness, never give you pleasure. Rather, you will be put into miserable conditions, put into fearful conditions, put into all sorts of anxiety. You will find so many enemies, and you will create so many enemies. This is pratiṣṭhā. How can this pratiṣṭhā give you pleasure and happiness?

Then the question comes: How can this pratiṣṭhā be utilized? How can the pratiṣṭhā be utilized? That’s the thing. Kṛṣṇa will give you pratiṣṭhā. Kṛṣṇa will give you everything if one is a true bhakta, a devotee, a pure devotee who has no desire in the core of his heart, no dhanam, etc. "I don’t want." Kṛṣṇa will give you everything. Kṛṣṇa gives high position, a higher position than Himself to His pure devotee. Kṛṣṇa quotes: "I am the Supreme, nobody superior to Me."

Kṛṣṇa says He is the Supreme Person, the Supreme Master, all are His subordinates. But it is said quotes: "Those who are fools, they want to become God, one with the Lord, they are fools." But the bhaktas, niskīncana bhakta, akincana bhaktas, Kṛṣṇa will give them the highest position. Kṛṣṇa will give them the highest position, Kṛṣṇa will give them all glory, all fame, everything. Kṛṣṇa gives them—even a higher position than that of His own position.

Quotes: "Therefore, Kṛṣṇa when He came as Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He came as a bhakta, a devotee. Therefore, He Himself assumed and teaches that if you want real pratiṣṭhā, then become a real bhakta, a true devotee, a pure devotee. It will automatically come to you, but the bhakta doesn’t want. Bhakta leads a very humble way of life, akincana, a very humble way of life. But it comes to him; it comes to his feet. But he kicks it. Quotes: "No, no, I don’t want." That is how you can utilize pratiṣṭhā.

Mahāprabhu—that’s a conversation between Rāmānanda Rāya and Mahāprabhu. Mahāprabhu asks this question—quotes—Rāmānanda Rāya answers—quotes. That is in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Mahāprabhu asks: "What is the greatest fame among all fames?" Rāmānanda Rāya answers—quotes: "One who has achieved this fame as a Kṛṣṇa bhakta, he is a Kṛṣṇa bhakta, he is a Vaiṣṇava. You see—he is the real famous person, he is the real famous person."

Pratiṣṭhā, it automatically comes. Kṛṣṇa gives it, but a bhakta never runs after it—rather, he kicks it out. He leads a very humble way of life. This is how you can utilize pratiṣṭhā. Otherwise, if you run after pratiṣṭhā and become a hypocrite, just posing like a Vaiṣṇava, running after pratiṣṭhā, trying to establish yourself as a great guru, Mahānta, sādhu, a great leader, like that, then you will be put into miserable conditions of life, in a fearful condition. You will be captured by Kali. Enemies must be there. You will never get real pleasure, peace, or happiness in life. This is the teaching. Thank you very much.

Devotee: On one side, you say to remain always as a disciple—this is the position of a disciple. But on the other side, the Vaiṣṇava wants to preach; he wants to save many people. One has to be a guru on the order of Mahāprabhu and have many disciples. So, on one side, many disciples; on the other side, remain a disciple.

Gour Govinda Swami: You don’t understand the purport of the saying, what is the real purport, the tattva. Quotes: "This order of Mahāprabhu: you see, I give you order, you become a guru. Do you understand? Whomever you meet, you tell about Kṛṣṇa, don’t tell anything else. Kṛṣṇa has said this thing. Don’t manufacture anything. Just repeat Kṛṣṇa's words, so you become a guru and deliver the whole world." This order has come up to my guru Mahārāj; it has not come up to me.

Do you follow? It has come up to my guru Mahārāj. I am the order carrier of my guru Mahārāj. I collect men for my guru Mahārāj. Do you understand? For spreading His mission, He has ordered me quotes: "I am His disciple. I am under discipline. I am not the guru. No, this order has not come to me. I am not a qualified person. Do you follow me?"

This is the purport. I am collecting men, followers, for my guru Mahārāj, to carry out His mission. He has ordered me. Do you understand? The men who are coming are His men. My men are scattered there—all over the world. Go and pick them up—pick them up! Spread my mission. A disciple's duty is to obey the order of the spiritual master. So, the guru is He. I am not the guru; I am a disciple. Quotes: "My guru Mahārāj thinks He is a disciple of His guru. I am a disciple of my guru. I am always under discipline." This is the attitude. Do you follow? Yes, this is the purport, the tattva. Nobody knows the tattva; they just do apparent consideration, aparavicāra. So, the problem is there. Do you follow, Hari-vilāsa Prabhu?

Harivila Prabhu: The proper attitude of the disciple would not be to invent some mission—his own mission?

Gour Govinda Swami: Now, this is his guru's mission, Mahāprabhu's mission, not his own mission.

Harivila Prabhu: He would not say that my guru only gave elementary plans, knowledge, and we need to fill it now.

Gour Govinda Swami: We have to spread; we have to fulfill the desire of the guru. We are His servants. We are the servants. Quotes: "I am always His disciple. My duty is to serve my guru, serve Gaurāṅga, and give them pleasure." This is the attitude. This is the attitude all the Vaiṣṇavas have. My guru Mahārāj thinks He is the disciple of His guru.

Bhaktisiddhānta thinks he is the disciple of his guru. Quotes: "I am a disciple." This is the attitude, the inner feeling, the inner attitude. Quotes: "Collecting men means collecting men for my guru, for spreading his mission. These are all his men. Do you understand? It is all his men, not my men. It is all his men." Collecting quotes, just increasing the family members of Prabhupāda. "I am increasing the family members of Prabhupāda, my guru Mahārāj, the family members." Do you understand?

Increasing—Gosṭhānandi—understand, this is the real purport. What is the difficulty? They don’t know this. Therefore, this misunderstanding is there, and therefore problems are coming up. Yes, Mahāprabhu's teachings are very clear. Mahājanas' teachings are very clear. Is there any difficulty in accepting this? Why are you creating problems? Because you want to be guru—you don’t want to be a disciple. Quotes: "No! Why should I be a disciple? I am the guru, I must have my disciples."

Devotee: The trick is that I want to attract disciples for my guru.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.

Devotee: If I become very famous, many people will come to me, and I will bring them to my guru.

Gour Govinda Swami:
Yes, yes, yes. There is nothing more. Fame will come, everything will come to you. Kṛṣṇa will give you all pratiṣṭhā, but I don’t want this. I utilize it for His service. Do you understand? Utilize it for His service. That’s why he leads a very humble way of life; he never beats his own drum or blows his own trumpet. (laughter) That is a dangerous situation. You see, this is the mystery, the inner feeling. This should be inner; this should not be outward. This should be the inner feeling. Kṛṣṇa knows the inner feeling, not the outward. You cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa. Just posing outwardly and inwardly wanting this—you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: After many years of sādhanā, he can still feel attraction to this kaṇaka (wealth), kāmini (woman), and pratiṣṭhā (fame).

Gour Govinda Swami: Is it all null and void? Mahājanas' teachings, Vaiṣṇava teachings, śāstras' teachings—see, you should take lessons.